[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Then that’s not Russia threatening to launch a nuclear strike against the whole world is it

What? They've threatened Ireland and the UK among others, and there would obviously be a retaliation if they destroyed the whole of the UK, so of course it's a threat to the world.

Zeberdi said:
- honestly what a ridiculous discussion.

Then stop discussing it :shrug:

Zeberdi said:
Please stop comparing Russias war on Ukraine with Israel’s war on Gaza/ME - seriously what on earth is the point?

Is someone brings up the likelihood of this conflict starting WW3, it's not surprising that the conflict in Ukraine is also going to be discussed. It's also possible that Russia have had a hand in this conflict as it could help them. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Wrong - I have posted numerous information in this thread to this effects with plenty of source material to back it up.

There are over 4,000 posts here, so I'm not going to go through them to find something you claim. If you want to backup your claim, do so. If you don't, then don't.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

heathgate said:
Israel could, with a bit of effort, defeat Iran without putting a single boot on Iranian soil if it so desires, but Israel also, does not want to destroy anyone, they just want to live in peace....

If Israel just wanted to live in peace, they should not occupy any of Palestine. But they do. They should leave.

Westdene Seagull · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
It is Russian policy to take over the whole of Ukraine.
I don't think that it's Israel's policy to take over the whole of Palestine (feel free to provide a link if it is).

When I have the time I'll find the BBC report on the statements but here's Reuters to start with :

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-join-ultranationalist-conference-urging-gaza-resettlement-2024-01-29/

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
There are over 4,000 posts here, so I'm not going to go through them to find something you claim. If you want to backup your claim, do so. If you don't, then don't.

There are even more on the Ukraine thread, 690 posts by you alone in fact - so ditto.

Most people that have followed this thread credit me me well researched and pretty balanced information - I don’t really need to back up claims I have repeatedly made before and previously backed up with numerous references/source material nor have I the time to do so to new readers to the thread, so accept what I say or don’t

As I said, this is not a competition between what is the worse war or likely to most escalate, so comparing the two with this kind of passive aggressive attitude is pointless imo and achieves nothing.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Westdene Seagull said:
When I have the time I'll find the BBC report on the statements but here's Reuters to start with :

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-join-ultranationalist-conference-urging-gaza-resettlement-2024-01-29/

Thanks, but you've basically posted a link confirming what I said:
"The statement from the firebrand Ben-Gvir clashed with the official government position iterated by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel does not intend to return a permanent presence to Gaza once the war with Hamas is over."

So yes, there ultranationalists who want to take over Gaza (which is one city, not the whole of Palestine), but the official policy is that Israel is not seeking to take occupy the city. Contrast that with Russia, whose official policy is to take over the whole of Ukraine.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
There are even more on the Ukraine thread, 690 posts by you alone in fact - so ditto.

Ditto what? I've not asked you to look up something I've posted, so what are you talking about?

Zeberdi said:
Most people that have followed this thread credit me me well researched and pretty balanced information - I don’t really need to back up claims I have repeatedly made before and backed with numerous references nor have I the time to so accept what I say or don’t

Thanks. I'll go with 'don't'.

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
What? They've threatened Ireland and the UK among others, and there would obviously be a retaliation if they destroyed the whole of the UK, so of course it's a threat to the world.

See my post above

Random guy, not official Kremlin policy statements or intent, lots of media hyperbolic reaction and fear-mongering in response to terror propoganda

Russia’s Medvedev threatens to nuke US, UK, Germany, Ukraine if Russia loses occupied territories

"Attempts to restore Russia's 1991 borders will lead only to one thing - a global war with Western countries with the use of our entire strategic (nuclear) arsenal against Kyiv, Berlin, London, and Washington. And against all other beautiful historic places that have long been included in the...

kyivindependent.com

Triggaaar said:
Then stop discussing it

Triggaaar said:
Is someone brings up the likelihood of this conflict starting WW3, it's not surprising that the conflict in Ukraine is also going to be discussed. It's also possible that Russia have had a hand in this conflict as it could help them. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't.

Are you reading my replies because I feel I keep having to repeat points I made earlier

See my/earlier post, a full blown Middle Eastern conflict would not help Russia IMO - Russia would lose the influence it has, it’s own strategic interests would come under threat (ie in Iraq, Syria and Iran) and it would rather Iran focussed it’s support on supporting Russia in Ukraine - Russia is also on very good terms with Israel. The only benefit to Russia if there was a wider ME conflict would be to the value of its oil reserves - again explained above.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
See my post above

Random guy, not official Kremlin policy statements or intent

IMO Putin decides what his ministers and media should and shouldn't say. They make nuclear threats with Putin's backing.
Re 'official Kremlin policy', I think you're mixing up our discussion about their nuclear threats with their policy of making Ukraine part of Russia. I wasn't suggesting that their nuclear threats are part of policy, they are simply making them. But it is their policy to take Ukraine.

Zeberdi said:
Are you reading my replies because I feel I keep having to repeat points I made earlier See my/earlier post, a full blown Middle Eastern conflict would not help Russia IMO

I read your post earlier, and as you highlight here, it is your opinion, not a fact. I'm not sure whether Russia is expecting a full blown ME conflict. or whether they would want it. It may depend on how desperate Putin gets. But I believe they support the current conflict because it takes both attention and resources away from Ukraine.

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
Thanks, but you've basically posted a link confirming what I said:
"The statement from the firebrand Ben-Gvir clashed with the official government position iterated by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel does not intend to return a permanent presence to Gaza once the war with Hamas is over."

So yes, there ultranationalists who want to take over Gaza (which is one city, not the whole of Palestine), but the official policy is that Israel is not seeking to take occupy the city. Contrast that with Russia, whose official policy is to take over the whole of Ukraine.

Firstly, get your facts right at least -

’Gaza’ the city, is the capital of Gaza the Palestinian enclave/territory in Easter Israel - it is an illegally Occupied Palestinian Territory that was invaded by the Israelis in 1967 - it has half a dozen large towns and cities with a population of over 2 million people. When Israel or any other interested party talks about the war in Gaza, or what happens after wards they are not referring to a City !!

(The West Bank and East Jerusalem form the rest of the OPT but the largest population of Palestinians live in Gaza)

Secondly, while Netanyahu says one thing, he is beholden to his extreme coalition partners that prop up his permiership. Netanyahu himself subscribes to a Greater Israel -

This is the policy of the Lukid Party of which he has been a member and leader for decades

“The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977”

It’s Time to Confront Israel’s Version of “From the River to the Sea”

Far from being a mere slogan, the phrase captures both the longtime ambitions of the Israeli right and the reality Israel has imposed on Palestine since 1967.

www.thenation.com

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
I read your post earlier, and as you highlight here, it is your opinion, not a fact. I'm not sure whether Russia is expecting a full blown ME conflict. or whether they would want it. It may depend on how desperate Putin gets. But I believe they support the current conflict because it takes both attention and resources away from Ukraine.

This is what I don’t understand about your PoV that Russia wants a war to escalate in the ME - why would Russia support an Israel v Iran War (which is what we were originally talking about when comparing who was the most risk to global stability in terms of escalating regional warfare) which would tax Iran’s military resources when it is Iran (and others) that is supplying weapons to Russia?

“It is now clear that Russia has succeeded in establishing an Arsenal of Autocracy together with Iran and North Korea. Moscow, Tehran, and Pyongyang are leveraging their military potential and producing the quantities of weapons necessary to overwhelm Western resistance and achieve Russian victory in Ukraine.”

Arsenal of Autocracy: North Korea and Iran are arming Russia in Ukraine

Together with Iran and North Korea, Russia has succeeded in establishing an Arsenal of Autocrats that now threatens to plunge the world into a new era of war and insecurity, writes Olivia Yanchik.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Vin · Apr 14, 2024

@Triggaaar @Zeberdi you two should go for a beer together and have a discussion.

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Vin said:
@Triggaaar @Zeberdi you two should go for a beer together and have a discussion.

You could just do what most people do and put you hands over your ears - or put us on ignore

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Firstly, get you facts right - you are really off the mark here and betraying a lack of knowledge

You're wrong and your attempts at patronising won't help.

I know what Gaza is and whether you're referring to the Gaza Strip or city, it is not the whole of Palestine. And regardless of which part of Gaza, it is not currently Israel's policy to occupy it, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Zeberdi said:
Secondly, while Netanyahu says one thing, he is beholden to his extreme coalition partners that prop up his permiership.

And I'd like the world to stand against Israel's expansion, but it's still not correct to say that their policy is to take over the whole of Palestine.

Zeberdi said:
This is the policy of the Lukid Party of which he has been a member and leader for decades

“The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable…

And equally you'll find opponents who deny Israel's right to exist at all. Neither point of view is just and neither should be supported.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
This is what I don’t understand about your PoV that Russia wants a war to escalate in the ME - why would Russia support an Israel v Iran War (which is what we were originally talking about when comparing who was the most risk to global stability in terms of escalating regional warfare) which would tax Iran’s military resources when it is Iran (and others) that is supplying weapons to Russia?

If the whole world stopped supplying Ukraine and Russia, that would benefit Russia. Yes, they would lose some support from Iran, but Ukraine stand to lose more, which would benefit Russia.

Deportivo Seagull · Apr 14, 2024

Westdene Seagull said:
The west need to stop arming him.

And that is where the problem lies. If Israel is not armed then they get wiped of the face of the planet …..
personally I think his days as PM are numbered, as ultimately he is responsible for the expansion of the settlers and the intelligence failings that led to Israel being caught out by Hamas.

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Triggaaar said:
You're wrong and your attempts at patronising won't help.

I know what Gaza is and whether you're referring to the Gaza Strip or city, it is not the whole of Palestine. And regardless of which part of Gaza, it is not currently Israel's policy to occupy it, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Literally can’t argue with someone who doesn’t even know what they said - you clearly said Gaza was a City and yes, the Policy of Greater Israel is exactly that - to take over the whole of Palestine and not recognise independence for the Palestinian territories but subsume them under a full Israeli administration. Netanyahu have NEVER supported a two state solution and likely never will. He is the leader of a far right party that has never recognised a two state solution either.

I also made it really clear that the West Bank and East Jerusalem were part of Palestine too so of course I didn’t say Gaza (the enclave) was the ‘whole of Palestine’.

Triggaaar said:
it's still not correct to say that their policy is to take over the whole of Palestine.

Sorry if you think I was being patronising you are simply wrong to suggest that this is not the Lukid Party’s policy and thus Bibi’s - I literally just posted an excerpt of the party manifesto for you because you were complaining I wasn’t backing up what I was saying. This isn’t a matter of opinion, but fact - Netanyahu is a far right leader and the first one of Isreal not to commit to a two state solution but rather wants Isreal’s borders to extend to include the OTP ie the whole of the lands referred to as ‘Palestine’ in the original Balfour agreements. Hamas currently are saying the want Israel to pull back to the 1967 borders.

Triggaaar said:
And equally you'll find opponents who deny Israel's right to exist at all. Neither point of view is just and neither should be supported.

Agreed - But this is Netanyahu the leader of Israel, the Lukid Party policy (Netanyahu‘s Party) - you keep repeatedly saying it is not the current policy of Israel to claim the whole of Palestine but it is - you can’t dismiss his position on Palestine as a few minority opponents- they are the ruling Party and crucially, it is feeding in to how he is conducting the war against Hamas and Hezbollah in the OPT (including the West Bank)

I need to call a halt to this because it‘s tiring and we are going round in circles - but I will include more links for you:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240119-netanyahu-only-greater-israel-will-exist-from-river-to-the-sea/

A report below that doesn’t even recognise West Bank as occupied territory to begin with so justifies annexation of the West Bank into Israel - btw used by the now current Israeli Ambassador to Britain when she was in charge of building settlements on the West Bank as Housing minister in Netanyahu’s far right Lukid Party - she herself is a self-declared Religious Zionist who supports a Greater Israel and does not subscribe to a two state solution. ( Recently both her and Sue Braverman came out and said Israel was providing plenty of aid and support to Palestinians - so why are children already dying of starvation?)

Levy Report Resurrects "Greater Israel" | Middle East Policy Council

mepc.org

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Literally can’t argue with someone who doesn’t even know what they said - you clearly said Gaza was a City

Gaza is a city :shrug:

Yes, the Gaza strip is also referred to as Gaza, but the point was that neither of those are the whole of Palestine.

Zeberdi said:
I also made it really clear that the West Bank and East Jerusalem were part of Palestine too so of course I didn’t say Gaza (the enclave) was the ‘whole of Palestine’.

I know you didn't, I didn't say otherwise.

Zeberdi said:
Sorry if you think I was being patronising you are simply wrong to suggest that this is not the Lukid Party’s policy

You weren't trying to patronise me about the policy, you were trying to patronise me about the difference between Gaza the city and the Greater Gaza area, when it's not relevant to the fact that Gaza (pick either) isn't the whole of Palestine.

Zeberdi said:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240119-netanyahu-only-greater-israel-will-exist-from-river-to-the-sea/

Fair enough.

Deportivo Seagull · Apr 14, 2024

Westdene Seagull said:
When I have the time I'll find the BBC report on the statements but here's Reuters to start with :

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-join-ultranationalist-conference-urging-gaza-resettlement-2024-01-29/

Which just goes to show that every country has their f***ing idiots. The settlers need to be booted out of Gaza and left to the Palestinians.

Zeberdi · Apr 14, 2024

Deportivo Seagull said:
Which just goes to show that every country has their f***ing idiots. The settlers need to be booted out of Gaza and left to the Palestinians.

just to clarify - and not trying to be patronising but there aren’t any Jewish settlers in Gaza - not since they were cleared in 2005 under Ariel Sharon’s Disengagement Policy of Gaza.

Every Country certainly doesn’t have an illegal occupying force attempting to annex land by killing innocent civilians and commandeering their homes. The settlers in the Occupied West Bank are not just ‘idiots’ ( they are) but they are also part of a concerted settlement expansion policy by the Netanyahu Government - no one will boot them out - least of all the current Israeli Government. It’s doubtful the Israeli Government will even concede any land claimed by the settlements in the West Bank as part of a peace plan either.

There seems to be quite an entrenched view in some quarters, that the West Bank is a legitimate part of Israel. I guess when a country has occupied land for a generation, built homes and set up businesses on it, it becomes harder to convince subsequent generations that this wasn’t their land in the first place

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