[Albion] The "Potter doesnt play with wingers" myth

[blockhseagull]

Give me an example of a "out and out" winger in the Premier League and lets have a look at their map.

What will that prove ?

Nothing

Doesn’t mean we play with wingers

 

[Swansman]

Is part of the problem here that there isn't really a name which is universally accepted to describe the position, say Trossard and Gross usually play in? As has been said most teams are playing three forwards, with two deeper and wider on either side.

But nobody has decided what they are called. Rashford, Salah, Messi, Gross, they're not wingers, really are they. A winger is something else. Giggs is a winger.

Inside forwards is the closest I can think of. Deep lying strikers, sometimes I hear. Inverted wingers sometimes, though that's problematic as they usually aren't inverted.

Every other role is named from where they position themselves on the pitch. A goalkeeper is someone who keeps the goal, a central midfielder is someone who plays centrally on the pitch, a forward is someone who plays forward on the pitch etc... a winger is someone who plays on the wing.

Sure, I dont disagree that the role has changed and I also miss the traditional wingers, but wingers are wingers.

The thing is that in some threads people complain about "not using the wings", "too congested centrally", while ie the heatmaps I posted shows that the team uses wingers and the full width of the pitch (albeit generally not in the "traditional" way).

What will that prove ?

Nothing

Doesn’t mean we play with wingers

Playing with players on the wing means playing with wingers.

 

[blockhseagull]

Every other role is named from where they position themselves on the pitch. A goalkeeper is someone who keeps the goal, a central midfielder is someone who plays centrally on the pitch, a forward is someone who plays forward on the pitch etc... a winger is someone who plays on the wing.

Sure, I dont disagree that the role has changed and I also miss the traditional wingers, but wingers are wingers.

The thing is that in some threads people complain about "not using the wings", "too congested centrally", while ie the heatmaps I posted shows that the team uses wingers and the full width of the pitch (albeit generally not in the "traditional" way).



Playing with players on the wing means playing with wingers.

Plays drifting into wide positions is NOT playing with wingers.

We do not play with wingers.... we play with a narrow midfield which allows players to drift wide when required.

I can appreciate you can’t really see this having not attended any games and only seeing the game on the TV. However when you are at the game you can see when we have the ball we are very narrow in midfield with the two players ‘tucked in’. As the play develops they drop out wide.... but often you will find Propper is out on the right as much as Groß when they both play.

I’m not saying we don’t use the full width of the pitch... but we don’t have players who stay wide.

 

[NooBHA]

Playing with players on the wing means playing with wingers.

As opposed to what ? - An Under 10s match where all 20 outfield players chase and follow the ball in whatever direction the wind blows the ball ?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

What exactly is a winger though?

Beckham was an unbelievable crosser of the ball and had a brilliant range of passes but yet wasn't someone who beat players running down the line.

Then there's Ginola who was quality at beating players, carrying the ball and cutting in and scoring.

Both were seen as wingers but totally different players

Wide midfielders who do their work from the wing, whether its swinging in crosses, using their pace to get to the byline or getting on the end of deep crosses from the other wing. Always in a midfield four or five, with their counterpart on the other flank. Beckham + Giggs, Ginola + Gillespie, Barnes + Waddle, Buckley + Noone, Robinson + Walker. But its not Salah + Mane or Rashford + Greenwood, who are (I presume) much more like the inside lefts or inside rights of yesteryear. These are forwards, not wingers.

 

[zefarelly]

I miss seeing players drive down the wings and ping crosses in for strikers to head/volley . . . . . alss a player out wide terrorising a defendfer, cutting in and taking the paint off the inside of the far post/cross bar . . . .both AK and Izzy can do the latter. AJ has shown in glimpses he can fizz crosses in, and shoot.

We haven't seen much of either this last season . . . .regardless of whether it's the way for teams like these to succeed in the PL, its nice to watch, and my dim/distant memory also reminds me its fun to play.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Plays drifting into wide positions is NOT playing with wingers.

We do not play with wingers.... we play with a narrow midfield which allows players to drift wide when required.

I can appreciate you can’t really see this having not attended any games and only seeing the game on the TV. However when you are at the game you can see when we have the ball we are very narrow in midfield with the two players ‘tucked in’. As the play develops they drop out wide.... but often you will find Propper is out on the right as much as Groß when they both play.

I’m not saying we don’t use the full width of the pitch... but we don’t have players who stay wide.

The question isn't really whether we play with 'wingers', we haven't in terms of the traditional sense of that position, the statement posed was "Potter doesn't play with wingers myth" – that is more difficult to answer.

To my mind Potter appears to be the type of manager who plays to the strengths of the best XI for a particular game he has available. The squad he has had at his disposal this season hasn't been blessed with out and out wingers, and those that you might class as that such as March (in and out of form / effectiveness), Izquierdo (injured), Jahanbakhsh (see March) haven't been able to make an impact, so the tactics have revolved around the likes of Mooy and Gross along with Trossard who probably can fulfill that traditional winger role.

Had Izquierdo been fit for example, would Potter's tactics have transformed to play to say his and Trossard's strengths if they both had wide positions? You look at Daniel James as an example, and Potter transformed him from lower league loanee to out and out winger Manchester United wanted. That's hardly a manager that doesn't play wingers.

 

[NooBHA]

I miss seeing players drive down the wings and ping crosses in for strikers to head/volley . . . . . alss a player out wide terrorising a defendfer, cutting in and taking the paint off the inside of the far post/cross bar . . . .both AK and Izzy can do the latter. AJ has shown in glimpses he can fizz crosses in, and shoot.

We haven't seen much of either this last season . . . .regardless of whether it's the way for teams like these to succeed in the PL, its nice to watch, and my dim/distant memory also reminds me its fun to play.

I agree. I used to love players like Peter Barnes, Laurie Cunningham, Dennis Teuart, Gordon Hill, Tony Galvin, Peter Marinello and John Robertson. It was a joy to watch every time those players got on the ball

 

[Guinness Boy]

I agree. I used to love players like Peter Barnes, Laurie Cunningham, Dennis Teuart, Gordon Hill, Tony Galvin, Peter Marinello and John Robertson. It was a joy to watch every time those players got on the ball

And if they had "heatmaps" back in the day theirs wouldn't have been that different (adjust for left/right where appropriate) to peak David Beckham, though he was undoubtedly a right midfielder and not a winger. There is a difference. It just can't be seen on heatmaps.

 

[Swansman]

And if they had "heatmaps" back in the day theirs wouldn't have been that different (adjust for left/right where appropriate) to peak David Beckham, though he was undoubtedly a right midfielder and not a winger. There is a difference. It just can't be seen on heatmaps.

Bit off topic but my frustration about Beckham is that I always believed he would have been the best right back in the world (well, second to Cafu maybe).

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

[/B]

As opposed to what ? - An Under 10s match where all 20 outfield players chase and follow the ball in whatever direction the wind blows the ball ?

This.
GP did not play with wingers in the true sense of the word.

In fact I think we played quite narrow.


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[Bry Nylon]

I miss seeing players drive down the wings and ping crosses in for strikers to head/volley . . . . .

Me too. I finished the last few seasons of my Goldstone days on that little bit of terrace in the north west corner just in front of that carpark.

If the ball got pushed out wide down the left wing, a bloke down the front would invariable yell "STICK IT IN THE MIXER!" as whoever had the ball ran past him.

Happy days

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I am going to have to agree with you again here. No way would I have described Beckham as a winger. There is a style of play that differentiates a winger from a wide midfielder. This is also why I would not describe March as a winger and, in my opinion, is why a lot of fans don't rate him as they judge him as a winger.

Beckham had no pace, but he did play on the wing. No problem calling him a wide midfielder rather than a winger, but he was way more of a winger than Trossard or Salah or Grealish...

Zaha and Townsend are about as close as we get to wingers now, also Pepe at Arsenal and Traore at Wolves

 

[FF1]

The question isn't really whether we play with 'wingers', we haven't in terms of the traditional sense of that position, the statement posed was "Potter doesn't play with wingers myth" – that is more difficult to answer.

To my mind Potter appears to be the type of manager who plays to the strengths of the best XI for a particular game he has available. The squad he has had at his disposal this season hasn't been blessed with out and out wingers, and those that you might class as that such as March (in and out of form / effectiveness), Izquierdo (injured), Jahanbakhsh (see March) haven't been able to make an impact, so the tactics have revolved around the likes of Mooy and Gross along with Trossard who probably can fulfill that traditional winger role.

Had Izquierdo been fit for example, would Potter's tactics have transformed to play to say his and Trossard's strengths if they both had wide positions? You look at Daniel James as an example, and Potter transformed him from lower league loanee to out and out winger Manchester United wanted. That's hardly a manager that doesn't play wingers.

I think this whole debate started because Jahanbakhsh was not given much playing time despite being quite impactfull. His number of goals, crosses, etc per number of minutes played is better than anyone else on the team, but GP just did not continue to use him. And he made March a wing back. And, of course, Izquierdo has been injured. I think that is why most people believe that GP does not like playing with wingers or "traditional wingers". Don't necessarily blame him given the height of our strikers...

 

[Megazone]

No way would I have described Beckham as a winger. There is a style of play that differentiates a winger from a wide midfielder.

Beckham was putting in non stop crosses from the the wing in his United days and many from the byline. His interplay with Neville made that right wing there's for many seasons. Of course he was a winger. Just not one who had pace. A wide midfielder would be someone like Grealish who links up a lot with the midfield and holds the ball for the team to reshape. Wingers are all about counter attack IMO.

 

[Swansman]

Ok considering people have extremely and differentiating narrow view of what a winger is I could agree GP does not use wingers...

 

[rogersix]

[/B]

As opposed to what ? - An Under 10s match where all 20 outfield players chase and follow the ball in whatever direction the wind blows the ball ?

aah! the old days! life was a lot simpler back then, we didn't have to lock our doors, y'know.......

 

[rogersix]

Bit off topic but my frustration about Beckham is that I always believed he would have been the best right back in the world (well, second to Cafu maybe).

too slow, and effeminate

 

[Machiavelli]

Trossard plays different roles and sometimes left of a front 3 etc. March has done a lot left wing back and sorry of wide midfield. I just don’t think he plays with out and out supplementary full backs like we did under Hughton in the PL. Where did James play for Swansea as he seems an out and out winger...? So I do personally buy into it as I don’t see out and out wingers hugging the touch line - more inverted than normal.

Corrected for you

 

[Machiavelli]

I honestly think (and this is just from watching the games, i don't have any heatmaps or such to prove it) that the 'no-wingers' myth comes from years of watching us play under Hughton. In his formations, the wingers had to be very disciplined to keep the shape and do a lot of defensive work, and their primary objective was to get the ball into the box for Murray, or look for a late run from Groß or the overlapping fullback (which was a problem when none of our fullbacks (except maybe Suttner) could cross). they had to stay out wide. Hughton's be-all-and-end-all was the rigid shape of the team, to try and make us difficult to break down, and it worked more often than not, to be honest. Potter seems to allow his attacking players much more freedom to roam between the lines, and drift off the main striker, with the likes of Trossard often pulling away into a position from which he can shoot or run at defenders and the likes of March looking to find others (Burn, Mooy, MacAllister, Lamptey, Maupay when he drops deep) in space. The increased use of attacking wingbacks (particularly when we play a back 3) perpetuates this myth. Whilst they still are wingers in every sense of the term, and do take up wide positions (as shown in the heatmaps you provided), the lessened need for a rigid shape under Potter (who favours tactical flexibility in order to maintain possession) has created this façade that they're not really playing as wingers at all. I would also add that whilst I believe the above to be true, I have noticed we've become more narrow under Potter, so perhaps there are elements of this in play as well.

Ahem. Bruno. How very dare you.