[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

And there was a case for that in the 1950's as there was a case for the common market in the 1970s when trade barriers and paper admin were hampering trade. This is 2019, there is no way on God's earth that France or Germany will go to war with us, besides we are now members of NATO and article 5 states that any attack on a member state will warrant an attack on the aggressor by all other NATO members..... So this whole argument about stopping war in Europe, was right 70 years ago but is now obsolete

I disagree, Greece and Turkey were and are NATO members when they had a little set to over Cyprus. Having economic and political ties is a much surer way of avoiding conflict than a pact to defend each other from attack. The lines of communication are always open, sure NATO forces train together, but that is not the same as political leaders talking to each other regularly, having other political leaders as common allies on first name terms means there is a bunch of mediators ready to step in and calm things down if two states were becoming hostile to each other.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I don't think Simplester realises MP's have their fingers in many pies often making more than their poxy salary

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

OK, so my MP is Peter Kyle - nice bloke - conversed with him a number of times. What other pies does he have his fingers in ?

MPs ARE underpaid when compared to what they could get working in business. It's rather ironic a plumber complaining someone is overpaid given how much plumbers charge !!!! ( and how few hours they work ).

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Do you live under a rock ? Go and look at the recruitment pages of Legal and General, Amex and One Family - plenty of £75k plus jobs in this city alone. That salary makes you comfortable not privilaged.

It might not make you privilaged , but what about privileged?

 

[portlock seagull]

The reverse is true, all over the world smaller autonomous regions have become part of larger countries. But it's the term more ethnically concentrated that is bothering me more. How would you describe your ethnicity?

Middle of the night tiredness. Meant national as in English, French, Welsh, Norwegian etc so please don’t go down the racist road because you couldn’t be more wrong. I believe in devolution and self determination and besides, the era of nation states may well be coming to an end replaced by eg City states, like the old days in Greece, Italy etc. Many say London already is. Borders are always changing, they’re only lines drawn on maps, most of France didn’t speak French until couple centuries ago, Germany is only 150 years old, UK little more than that. Who knows, The Kingdom of South Saxons May rise again! And if the local populace living there wants it like eg catalonia then why not? You can still be friends with your neighbours, people shouldn’t be punished for wanting to rule their own destinies.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So summing up then after MP`s agreed to carry out the result of the Referendum ,the Remain MP`s which is mostly Remain on the Labour side have been trying to overturn the result causing chaos which is nothing to do with the voters all we can do is watch . We expect the MP`s to abide by the result why have a referendum in the first place its very odd .?

It looks like the MPs tried to carry out 'the peoples will' by going for the only 'leave' option that was ever implementable from the day of the referendum. ie the softest of soft Brexits that TM seemed to be heading for.

Unfortunately, this may have been put at risk by a number of 'Hard Brexiteers' voting against it.

You couldn't make it up eh ?

 

[Tubby-McFat-Fuc]

So nothing to add, and no response to any of the points I've made.

Yes I am going to the Semi tomorrow thank you very much for asking

(And maybe you should get some sunshine and relax. You sound like you are getting a little wound up).

There are not your points though. All you ever do if post links. As I say you are a know all, without knowing **** all. I have read this for the past few months, and you never change.

When someone does make a point that makes one of your links null and void, and run and hide and completely blank them. You have done it over and over again, so what is the point in having a discussion with you. You have no point, therefore you cannot argue a point, yet all you do is ask people to respond to points you don't make. You would make the perfect UK M.P. So anyone who has followed this thread for a while, doesn't bother to try and discuss anything with you anymore, because they may as well talk to a brick wall.

Everyone who has followed this thread for more than a few days must have worked that out about you by now, surely.

 

[Tubby-McFat-Fuc]

I think that's it for me now. Theresa, nice try, but you clearly haven't got a clue what you're doing now.

Time to walk away and let someone else have a go who has some balls, a plan, and is believes in Brexit, which you clearly never have.

Cheerio.

It's taken you until now!!! You have more patience than I have. I think she lost the plot over a year ago. Tory all my life, there is no other choice at the moment, but I never thought we would ever have a worse PM than Gordon Brown. I thought he was as useless as you can get. How wrong I was!!

 

[peterward]

I'm afraid, my friend, it is you who is peddling falsehoods. If there was a solution, whereby we wouldn't be in the customs union and wouldn't need a hard border, what is it and why would we need 'the backstop' ?

(Your link that you have quoted says Merkel will offer an extension keeping us in the Customs Union to avoid a hard border )

This is about the EU putting pressure on Ireland to put in place processes for a hard border (even threatening to put a border between the EU and Ireland if they don't comply).

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-border/ireland-under-pressure-over-border-plans-for-no-deal-brexit-idUKKCN1Q31VM

here is the European Commission's chief spokesman making it clear that there would have to be a hard border

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

And here is what Angela Merkel did last week

Angela Merkel will travel to Dublin on Thursday to deliver a blunt warning to the Irish government that the time for avoiding the border question is over. In a no-deal scenario, Dublin will be forced to control the entry of goods into the single market from Northern Ireland.

“They’ve done nothing so far,” said a senior EU diplomat. “It can’t continue like this. It doesn’t mean walls on the border but action has to be taken. In the end, you can’t escape reality.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-braces-itself-for-a-wrecking-ball-brexit-as-it-blames-political-meltdown-in-london-c0f098zbz

It is, and has always been very clear, no Customs Union means a Hard Border.

Maybe you are not peddling falsehoods, maybe you have just been completely mistaken for the last 3 years

So the choice is the same as it has always been, Customs Union or Hard Border ?

Waffle...... It's not going to happen, both the Irish and the UK have said there will be no hard border in the event if no deal..... Do you think the EU will build it on Irish soil? The Irish will not build it regardless of what the EU say..... You don't seem to understand that the legal/technical reasons to build a hard border EU and non EU country are far outweighed and superceded by realpolitik. The good Friday agreement and peace in Ireland. That is, will and will always come before any legal basis.... There is nobody who will build your imaginary border posts.

I thought you also realised that the customs union doesn't solve the border issues? Do you understand what the CU is and how it works? Obviously not, the customs union proposed in the backstop is not about solving the Irish border problem because the customs union can't........

You know the British and Irish between themselves had made technical progress on the Irish border/good Friday agreement early in this process, when the EU insisted to Ireland, to end all bilateral talks and only let the EU deal with the UK, after which the backstop emerged and May, stupidly agreed...... The backstop (customs union ) is nothing to do with borders or tariff free trade as an insurance policy (as branded) it is the bridge to the exact future relationship the EU insists we have with them(CU), thus why we can't escape it unless they allow us. It's the reason that even though the EU plan to use technology to do checks away from the border in event of no deal on Irish insistence and neither UK or Ireland will build border posts, when we ask for the same to replace backstop, they say it's not possible. The Irish hard border is the biggest red herring in the whole brexit process. Politics always trump's technicality.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Hang on, wasn't leaving about taking back control, and our own sovereignty. Are you telling me, Mr Rees-Mogg, that we actually have power in the EU Parliament?

[tweet]1114098924263038976[/tweet]

 

[portlock seagull]

And there was a case for that in the 1950's as there was a case for the common market in the 1970s when trade barriers and paper admin were hampering trade. This is 2019, there is no way on God's earth that France or Germany will go to war with us, besides we are now members of NATO and article 5 states that any attack on a member state will warrant an attack on the aggressor by all other NATO members..... So this whole argument about stopping war in Europe, was right 70 years ago but is now obsolete

A point I made earlier too, to @Clump. A tired obsolete and irrelevant argument to be using in 2017. Wish people would stop and think as you’ve done

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Waffle...... It's not going to happen, both the Irish and the UK have said there will be no hard border in the event if no deal..... Do you think the EU will build it on Irish soil? The Irish will not build it regardless of what the EU say..... You don't seem to understand that the legal/technical reasons to build a hard border EU and non EU country are far outweighed and superceded by realpolitik. The good Friday agreement and peace in Ireland. That is, will and will always come before any legal basis.... There is nobody who will build your imaginary border posts.

I thought you realised that the customs union doesn't solve all border issues? Obviously not, the customs union proposed in the backstop is not about solving the Irish border problem because the customs union can't........

You know the British and Irish between themselves had made technical progress on the Irish border/good Friday agreement early in this process, when the EU insisted to Ireland, to end all bilateral talks and only let the EU deal with the UK, after which the backstop emerged and May, stupidly agreed...... The backstop (customs union ) is nothing to do with borders or tariff free trade as an insurance policy (as branded) it is the bridge to the exact future relationship the EU insists we have with them(CU), thus why we can't escape it unless they allow us. It's the reason that even though the EU plan to use technology to do checks away from the border in event of no deal on Irish insistence and neither UK or Ireland will build border posts, when we ask for the same to replace backstop, they say it's not possible. The Irish hard border is the biggest red herring in the whole brexit process. Politics always trump's technicality.

Whilst you're accusing others of waffling, please think about the whole picture. The Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty signed under the auspices of the United Nations. It meant both sides being free to trade without a border because both sides were in the EU.

Then look at Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar has an MEP in the EU Parliament. They vote along with the South West of England, so there is a similar situation there as in Ireland.
Then there is Cyprus. Our British bases in Cyprus are British territory.

It isn't waffle.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Hang on, wasn't leaving about taking back control, and our own sovereignty. Are you telling me, Mr Rees-Mogg, that we actually have power in the EU Parliament?

[tweet]1114098924263038976[/tweet]

Rees-Mogg is only saying that as he's now reduced to begging the French President and others to give him his Little England/No deal Brexit fantasy by blocking an extension. If nothing else, it's good to see him exposed for what he always was further.

 

[Baldseagull]

Crap idea the customs union!

even Guardian columnist reporting same today..... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/customs-union-soft-brexit-trade-goods

2 big plusses for the customs Union. 1st one, it goes most of the way to solving the issue at the border with Ireland. 2nd it makes selling and buying goods from Europe easier, means a day tripper can fill the boot with wine from Calais instead of a couple of bottles.

However, it is not THE customs union, depending on how close we are in terms to The customs union will make a massive difference for our ability to get in on the FTA's the EU has or replicate them. Membership is still superior.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Let the killing begin. Convinced that's the only answer and we haven't had a civil war for centuries so how about one?

A point I made earlier too, to @Clump. A tired obsolete and irrelevant argument to be using in 2017. Wish people would stop and think as you’ve done

Maybe you should stop and think before you post, also. Just this week Jack Renshaw was jailed for attempting to kill Rosie Cooper MP.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

And there was a case for that in the 1950's as there was a case for the common market in the 1970s when trade barriers and paper admin were hampering trade. This is 2019, there is no way on God's earth that France or Germany will go to war with us, besides we are now members of NATO and article 5 states that any attack on a member state will warrant an attack on the aggressor by all other NATO members..... So this whole argument about stopping war in Europe, was right 70 years ago but is now obsolete

We'd better dial down the 'hatred of the nasty EU rhetoric' then unless we want the Kremlin strategy of breaking up NATO to succeed.

It'll only take Trumpski to pull the US out of NATO, and a UK blaming the evil EU for a *no deal* catastrophe, for us to follow them out of the same door.

 

[peterward]

I disagree, Greece and Turkey were and are NATO members when they had a little set to over Cyprus. Having economic and political ties is a much surer way of avoiding conflict than a pact to defend each other from attack. The lines of communication are always open, sure NATO forces train together, but that is not the same as political leaders talking to each other regularly, having other political leaders as common allies on first name terms means there is a bunch of mediators ready to step in and calm things down if two states were becoming hostile to each other.

I agree with you entirely fella, but there is nothing to stop that level of cross country co-operation between EU allies, NATO Allies and through the UN, it shouldnt require that in order to do so, the other party will have to take supremacy of your legislature on your behalf through political appointees.

 

[peterward]

We'd better dial down the 'hatred of the nasty EU rhetoric' then unless we want the Kremlin strategy of breaking up NATO to succeed.

It'll only take Trumpski to pull the US out of NATO, and a UK blaming the evil EU for a *no deal* catastrophe, for us to follow them out of the same door.

What if, what if....... What if the EU actually had an army, or wasn't paralysed in decision making by needing 27 unanimous signatories as was the case in sanctioning Russia due to Crimea. Russia won't split NATO, and whilst we retain our nuclear deterent they will not attack or invade, but Putin will play his subversive games either way.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

May's written to The EU requesting an extension to June 30th.

Brilliant move !

They rejected that date last request.

*rolls eyes*. Again.

 

[Gwylan]

I don't often read the Daily Mail but I thought it would be worth a glance today to see what they thought about the 'flextension'. Some great howls of anguish but there's a fantastic rant from someone called k u anon who's putting up post after post that maintains that the EU is part of a Catholic/Jesuit plot to take over the world "that's why it's called the Treaty of Rome and not the Treaty of Europe".

There have been lots of loony posts about the EU in the last three years but his is the best of the lot

 

[LlcoolJ]

Middle of the night tiredness. Meant national as in English, French, Welsh, Norwegian etc so please don’t go down the racist road because you couldn’t be more wrong. I believe in devolution and self determination and besides, the era of nation states may well be coming to an end replaced by eg City states, like the old days in Greece, Italy etc. Many say London already is. Borders are always changing, they’re only lines drawn on maps, most of France didn’t speak French until couple centuries ago, Germany is only 150 years old, UK little more than that. Who knows, The Kingdom of South Saxons May rise again! And if the local populace living there wants it like eg catalonia then why not? You can still be friends with your neighbours, people shouldn’t be punished for wanting to rule their own destinies.

So after your angry rants last night, you've just proved that what I posted was EXACTLY what you meant. You couldn't make it up!