[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

Don't you think Brexit has something to do with that?

I didn't say it hadn't. The thing is I'm just quoting former Home Secretary Amber Rudd from her Times interview on the Norway+ option - I can copy and paste the whole article for you if you don't have a subscription and you email her questions by multi quoting from the article if you'd like.

 

[ManOfSussex]

How the hell would they know the figures on migration,anyway?We now have Rumanian shops opening in our area,so EU migration is just coming from different areas,not reducing,or it certainly seems that way.

How the hell would former Home Secretary Amber Rudd know that net migration figures from EU countries are at a 6 year low when making a point in a Times interview in which the Norway+ option was muted?

You're quite right - I've no idea.

 

[Triggaaar]

Listen to this now is just surreal.....


[tweet]1072548166971596802[/tweet]

It is surreal.

The simple fact is that we voted to leave, but we also voted in MPs who want us to remain.

What a ****ing mess.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The clip said President of the European Movement, JRM is the chairman of ERG. Are they as equally as important?

Equally unimportant when it comes to government policy.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't think TB intended to spread mis-information, I think she mistakenly thought Lunde was the leader of Norway.

No, I didn't, but I did think it was some sort of important organisation in the Norwegian/EU relations.

 

[Triggaaar]

No, I didn't

 

[beorhthelm]

The simple fact is that we voted to leave, but we also voted in MPs who want us to remain.

therein lies the problem, the MPs dont feel they can ignore the referendum since most of them are in seats that voted to leave, even though they would prefer to remain. and i would hazard a guess that dynamic would not change much in a 2nd referendum, a few percent swing nationally would likely be focused in areas or still return majority leave on seat by seat basis.

so, should we accept representative democracy and ask the MPs to vote with their conscience, or vote according to their local electorate?

 

[Ernest]

So May's vote won't happen till January, still a bit of road for that old can but it's looking awfully dented with the kicking it has had recently

 

[Simster]

Suggesting that a single MP speaks for the whole of the government of Norway is like suggesting JRM speaks for the whole of the UK government.

To suggest Norway+ just isn't realistic. EFTA is - broadly speaking - like associate membership of the EU. In case you're interested, the key difference between EFTA and EU is that they don't have to sign up to common policies, so they're not putting up with the crap agriculture and fisheries policies of the EU.

The trade off for this piece of independence is that they get no say on policy, but they do have to contribute financially, they are not free to negotiate trade agreements freely, and they do have to accept the laws coming out of the EU - as long as all 3 members agree to do so. Regardless, there have barely been a handful of laws that haven't been accepted by EFTA, because they unanimously agree that generally speaking, to accept EU laws are in their interests.

Apart from the obvious fact that EFTA crosses all our red lines, us joining them would also disrupt the existing relationship between the 3 small EFTA nations - which is why none of them want us in it.

 

[ManOfSussex]

To suggest Norway+ just isn't realistic. EFTA is - broadly speaking - like associate membership of the EU. In case you're interested, the key difference between EFTA and EU is that they don't have to sign up to common policies, so they're not putting up with the crap agriculture and fisheries policies of the EU.

The trade off for this piece of independence is that they get no say on policy, but they do have to contribute financially, they are not free to negotiate trade agreements freely, and they do have to accept the laws coming out of the EU - as long as all 3 members agree to do so. Regardless, there have barely been a handful of laws that haven't been accepted by EFTA, because they unanimously agree that generally speaking, to accept EU laws are in their interests.

Apart from the obvious fact that EFTA crosses all our red lines, us joining them would also disrupt the existing relationship between the 3 small EFTA nations - which is why none of them want us in it.

In regards to Norway+ though, if we asked for it we could have exactly the same relationship as The EFTA countries have with The EU without joining EFTA. Obviously the red lines that you mention that made this option a non starter in 2017 once Article 50 was fired off.

 

[ManOfSussex]

So May's vote won't happen till January, still a bit of road for that old can but it's looking awfully dented with the kicking it has had recently

I think the children at Westminster will have to start doing what their grown up friends and neighbours around Europe advise them to by then.

[tweet]1073237337713373184[/tweet]

 

[Wrong-Direction]

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Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[WATFORD zero]

therein lies the problem, the MPs dont feel they can ignore the referendum since most of them are in seats that voted to leave, even though they would prefer to remain. and i would hazard a guess that dynamic would not change much in a 2nd referendum, a few percent swing nationally would likely be focused in areas or still return majority leave on seat by seat basis.

so, should we accept representative democracy and ask the MPs to vote with their conscience, or vote according to their local electorate?

But it's not that simple is it ? If they vote according to their electorate and the local electorate voted leave, what should they vote for ?

TM's deal
No deal
Norway
Canada

which one did the leave voters in their constituency want ?

 

[Gwylan]

so, should we accept representative democracy and ask the MPs to vote with their conscience, or vote according to their local electorate?

If they vote according to the local electorate, why do we need to have MPs. Every decision that has to be made, could be decided like X Factor or Strictly. People could vote via an app or online and the government wouldn't have to be elected - the civil service could just implement people's decisions.

Or, we have what we have now, where MPs can considered decisions and decide on what's best for the country (as I genuinely believe most of them do).

I've quoted Burke's dictum before but it's worth quoting again as it's a fundamental principle of representative democracy "... authoritative instructions; mandates issued, which the member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgment and conscience,--these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental mistake of the whole order and tenor of our constitution."

 

[Two Professors]

If they vote according to the local electorate, why do we need to have MPs. Every decision that has to be made, could be decided like X Factor or Strictly. People could vote via an app or online and the government wouldn't have to be elected - the civil service could just implement people's decisions.

Or, we have what we have now, where MPs can considered decisions and decide on what's best for the country (as I genuinely believe most of them do).

I've quoted Burke's dictum before but it's worth quoting again as it's a fundamental principle of representative democracy "... authoritative instructions; mandates issued, which the member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgment and conscience,--these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental mistake of the whole order and tenor of our constitution."

But MP's voting Remain are mainly interested in keeping the Gravy Train in operation for when they get de-selected or voted out,not the good of the country.We are not ordering them to commit mass murder,or genocide,just follow the electorate's vote to Leave.

 

[daveinplzen]

But MP's voting Remain are mainly interested in keeping the Gravy Train in operation for when they get de-selected or voted out,not the good of the country.We are not ordering them to commit mass murder,or genocide,just follow the electorate's vote to Leave.

Is this 'gravy train' a different train to which Brexit MPs are on?
What sort of leave is that incidentally? TMays leave, no deal, soft Brexit?

 

[daveinplzen]

Or, put another way, the result of the referendum. Yes.

So, you want a No Deal Brexit? You keep forgetting to elaborate. Was that your vote? A no deal?

 

[Two Professors]

Is this 'gravy train' a different train to which Brexit MPs are on?
What sort of leave is that incidentally? TMays leave, no deal, soft Brexit?

The EU Gravy Train,with the non-auditable expense accounts.The 'Leave' is leave the EU,however it happens.All these silly little labels added on to Leave are meaningless babble.It's like pregnancy,no shades like soft pregnancy,Norway pregnancy,just a little bit pregnant,it's either Leave or Remain,and the will of the people was to Leave.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

But MP's voting Remain are mainly interested in keeping the Gravy Train in operation for when they get de-selected or voted out,not the good of the country.We are not ordering them to commit mass murder,or genocide,just follow the electorate's vote to Leave.

I'd always assumed that MPs who have traditionally supported British membership did so for entirely laudable reasons, such as a belief that it best served opportunities for young people or the economic wellbeing of the country. You say that most of them simply want a ride on the gravy train after they leave office. Have you any evidence of this? Stats for the number of ex-MPs currently working for the EU perhaps...

 

[Ernest]

It will be interesting to see whether the ERG headbangers go nuclear and side with Labour when they call a vote of no confidence, that is the only option now to get rid of May and her deal