David has only gone and done it!

[sir albion]

EU immigrants are primarily young healthy members of the workforce, they're not the ones filling the hospitals. So, no, the vacancies in the NHS are not caused by immigration.

The second part goes back to the maths of my original post, there aren't enough people in Britain to fill all the jobs.

As for the overcrowding in the southeast, are we sure thats because of immigration? Are you sure its not because of British people moving to the southeast from other parts of the country because our economy is concentrated here?

Well I'd suspect most migrants would be where the work is and here we have around 30,000 polish alone and the roads are getting pretty clogged...bit of both me thinks.

 

[GT49er]

This won't happen as then there would be demands for a further referendum except this time the out campaign would have the upper hand.

What planet are you on? Sorry, but do you really think there's even a one in a million chance of a second referendum? - unless we vote for a Brexit, of course.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don't be daft as this won't change the views of the outers and rightly so...
These caps and delays in benefits are not good enough and it's just a way of fooling the public as the EU will drum up a similar law in time and we'll be back to square one again.
Having to wait til 2020 for one and a break for 7 years for another sums it up as something just to sweeten up the public.
The EU don't want us to leave as we're just a cash cow they can boss around and that's why they've agreed to these minuscule demands from Cameron.
People want us to have our laws and to control our borders

Quite right.

So the question will be, are the outers in the majority or minority? My guess at the moment, given the apparent satisfaction expressed by folk who are moderate tory voters, is that the outcome will be an 'in' vote. After all, there was a much stronger and coherent voice to leave the UK in Scotland, culminating in a clean sweep of SNP MPs, yet even this electorate voted for the status quo in their referendum. I posted my views about electorates on anther thread . . . .

So, despite my views about the substance of the deal, it doesn't really matter that Cameron's deal is a joke. It is a deal, and that is all he wanted or needed. For that he gets my respect. As we have seen, though, this won't shift the outers an inch, but it won't matter.

Fortunately the outcome won't be war (see the numerous allusions to Chamberlain's little piece of paper). The opposite in fact (and I don't mean 'raw'), which on balance suits me fine.

 

[Hugo Rune]

When Cameron was in Euro land: Let my Cameron go.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EvdfNnYOECs

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Of course we need migration and this will continue,but at least we can control who and how many we want to come here.At the moment we're getting mostly unskilled Europeans and also migrants from the commonwealth
and the rest of the world.
I agree the non eu migrants are a big issue.

As we discussed on the other thread, we're getting mostly unskilled because we need mostly unskilled. British people tend to be qualified and skilled and not applying for these jobs, including poorly-paid public sector work.

You argue we can control it, but the workplace economy tends to be self-controlling. All the Irish and Dutch and Poles and others who come to the UK are here for work, if there is no work they by-and-large go home. My point is that a "controlled" immigration policy is unlikely to look much different to the current one in terms of number of people in the country.

There are large parts of our immigration policy that we can control, but seem quite happy to continue bringing workers in, we gave 171,000 working visas in the year to March 2015. If we were flooded with immigrants from the EU why do we need to give work visas to non-EU residents? They're not all skilled, we give 26,000 working visas to Australians each year, a large number for people working in bars and restaurants. The stats show that 102,000 of the 171,000 working visas are for skilled or highly-skilled people, so the remainder are well, not, and yet we still apparently need them despite the open borders in the EU

 

[Soulman]

Let's be exact here - the changes won't be ratified by all the other 27 members until after the referendum. What happens if 1 or 2 don't ratify them ? Ah yes, back to where we are today but the UK has been tied to the EU with no changes.

This with warning bells on.

 

[Hampster Gull]

So you think David is getting himself a legacy as good as Thatchers?

 

[Diego Napier]

Read your history. In the North in the 50s the locals would not work nights in the mills. So the minister in charge had a bright ideal - let's recruit people from the colonies. This is the reason for the concentration of Asians in parts of Lancashire. And who was the minister who had this great Idea? Enoch Powell. Look him up.

The reason Ken, where I live, is full of migrant fruit pickers from East Europe, and has been for at least 15 years, is because the locals will not do the work. Simple.

This is the reason for almost all immigration - a pact between folk seeking work and folk needing workers

And "cheap" immigrant labour has been used in Britain for centuries (along with plenty of child labour but that's another story).

p.s. Are you on first name terms with Goldstone?

 

[Soulman]

.

You argue we can control it, but the workplace economy tends to be self-controlling.

There are large parts of our immigration policy that we can control, but seem quite happy to continue bringing workers in, we gave 171,000 working visas in the year to March 2015. If we were flooded with immigrants from the EU why do we need to give work visas to non-EU residents?

Why can we not control it if we know what skills or unskilled we are looking for, this is known as CONTROLLED immigration which whilst not having control over our borders seems harder to do.

Of course immigration from non-EU citizens needs tackling but you seem obsessed by the figures and bring them up whenever EU immigration is mentioned. This is about the EU and sorting this in or out issue, the non-EU citizens is a different problem.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Let's be exact here - the changes won't be ratified by all the other 27 members until after the referendum. What happens if 1 or 2 don't ratify them ? Ah yes, back to where we are today but the UK has been tied to the EU with no changes.

Theoretically possible but very highly unlikely I'd say.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why can we not control it if we know what skills or unskilled we are looking for, this is known as CONTROLLED immigration which whilst not having control over our borders seems harder to do.

Of course immigration from non-EU citizens needs tackling but you seem obsessed by the figures and bring them up whenever EU immigration is mentioned. This is about the EU and sorting this in or out issue, the non-EU citizens is a different problem.

You seem to be repeatedly missing Kalimantan Gull's point.

 

[Soulman]

You seem to be repeatedly missing Kalimantan Gull's point.

In your opinion.
Do you want the UK in the EU because it will benefit where you live or are you genuinely concerned for the UK.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Let's be exact here - the changes won't be ratified by all the other 27 members until after the referendum. What happens if 1 or 2 don't ratify them ? Ah yes, back to where we are today but the UK has been tied to the EU with no changes.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier without much success.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Let's be exact here - the changes won't be ratified by all the other 27 members until after the referendum. What happens if 1 or 2 don't ratify them ? Ah yes, back to where we are today but the UK has been tied to the EU with no changes.

But it's meant to only be 'inners' who 'scaremonger'.

Well I never.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

In your opinion.
Do you want the UK in the EU because it will benefit where you live or are you genuinely concerned for the UK.

Wether the UK is in or out will not affect where I choose to live. I think the UK and the EU are better off together. So, the latter.

 

[sir albion]

As we discussed on the other thread, we're getting mostly unskilled because we need mostly unskilled. British people tend to be qualified and skilled and not applying for these jobs, including poorly-paid public sector work.

You argue we can control it, but the workplace economy tends to be self-controlling. All the Irish and Dutch and Poles and others who come to the UK are here for work, if there is no work they by-and-large go home. My point is that a "controlled" immigration policy is unlikely to look much different to the current one in terms of number of people in the country.

There are large parts of our immigration policy that we can control, but seem quite happy to continue bringing workers in, we gave 171,000 working visas in the year to March 2015. If we were flooded with immigrants from the EU why do we need to give work visas to non-EU residents? They're not all skilled, we give 26,000 working visas to Australians each year, a large number for people working in bars and restaurants. The stats show that 102,000 of the 171,000 working visas are for skilled or highly-skilled people, so the remainder are well, not, and yet we still apparently need them despite the open borders in the EU

Tend to agree as also the non EU migrants are the biggest drain on the benefits system.
This demand won't last forever and wether they go home or not after remains to be seen and fully understand your point of the demands of immigration due to a demanding economy.
The EU it seems isn't doing enough to spread the jobs around Europe and it seems that half a dozen European countries are thriving compared to 25 or so who're not.Having EU nationals and many are skilled leaving their home countries is a very bad thing and puts extra pressure on those countries...its a catch 22.

To solve the future problems here we need to get amongst it and start having loads of babies as 1.3 babies here is ridiculously low like much of Europe.

 

[GT49er]

Theoretically possible but very highly unlikely I'd say.

So you think it will probably be ratified then? Well, that's a sound enough reason to vote 'in' then - yeh, let's commit the future of this country to an agreement that'll probably be OK!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So you think it will probably be ratified then? Well, that's a sound enough reason to vote 'in' then - yeh, let's commit the future of this country to an agreement that'll probably be OK!

Yes, it will be ratified if the UK votes to stay in in my opinion.

 

[goldstone]

Complete nonsense. Twenty years ago, when I used to shop in Sainsbury, Nine Elms, London, 99% of the shoppers were white, and 100% of the women working the tills were black. I suppose you think the latter were stealing jobs from the former .

If you oppose immigration because you don't want foreigners near you, be honest about it. Perverting the laws of mathematics to justify yourself is ludicrous.

Of course I don't want foreigners near me ... and I'm man enough to admit it.

If we HAVE to have immigrants here to do low paid work, then we should adopt the system used in the UAE and other Middle East countries whereby we give people work permits which allow them to stay here as long as they are working. No benefits. When the work ends you go home. And they can't bring family.

We shouldn't even have to do that until all the low-lifes sleeping and begging on the streets of Brighton and other towns and cities are put to work doing these low paid jobs.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

But it's meant to only be 'inners' who 'scaremonger'.

Well I never.

I'm not scaremongering. I'm pointing out we should only have a vote once all the other countries parliaments have approved the changes - otherwise we're voting on a theory / promise rather than actual fact. Ireland voted against the Treaty of Lisbon first time, why is it implausible that some parliaments will vote against this ? And if someone does what happens ? As usual it's an EU fudge with CMD hoping people don't raise too many questions.
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