Its the People not the Politicians

[BadFish]

They advocate radical change that other mainstream politicians do not.............this is a undeniable fact, regardless of whether you agree with their political objective.

If you don't want anymore undemocratic EU monetarist policies crushing the working class then UKIP are the only credible show in town.

As for whether they represent their voters, do you those who vote in Sinn Fein MPs in NI are confused because they don't sit in the HoP? Of course they don't...........and yet I have yet to hear any criticism of Adams and McGuinness on that basis.

It's a strange world we live in.......

I am not convinced that the change, should they achieve it, is going to be that radical. Even if they manage to bring the UK out of the UK I am not sure much will change in UK or global politics for the masses. We will still be governed by people who have their own interests at heart instead of their voters.

I suppose that if the change you are looking for is lower immigration and an exit from the EU then UKIP are your party and you will see that as radical change. Personally I don't think it will make much difference to anything and therefore will not be radical. radical change to me is that those we vote for should represent our interests ahead of their own. UKIP are not going to achieve this.

Really if UKIP is political revolution, I can't see that the mainstream parties will be that worried as all they have to do is shift a little on a few policies and they are back in the saddle. Not that radical IMHO.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Will you all shut up!? Its the politicians and the people that vote for them that are the problem TREAD CLOSED

Wow - thank you David Dimbleby, it's so nice being told what we can debate .... or not !

 

[pastafarian]

I don't mind demonstrating the pro-war propaganda every day for the next few days if you want - I'll certainly do it for you tomorrow. It's such a predictable rag, but it seems that you like many of its readers have become desensitised to it all.

ISIS:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ces-leave-200-enemy-dead-just-four-weeks.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-defending-beleaguered-town-against-ISIS.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ria-two-UK-citizens-killed-fighting-ISIS.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-girl-stuff-says-terrorist-ex-husband.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lamists-execute-28-non-Muslims-Kenya-bus.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sidential-Homes-distance-jihadists-Syria.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Salford-taxi-driver-killed-jihadi-John.html

As promised.

ISIS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...reezing-Europe-join-ISIS-police-let-bail.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...extremists-Syria-issues-chilling-warning.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...way-join-Isis-terrorists-frontline-Syria.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-two-weeks-couldn-t-face-giving-smoking.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Union-Jack-torn-burnt-spat-Kent-village.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...killed-babies-raped-mothers-tried-escape.html

i am looking forward to todays ISIS links as promised by you,please do not disappoint.

I am glad you are spreading awareness of these DM online articles to people who would not normally come across them.

You are doing a good thing.

 

[Hastings gull]

I am not convinced that the change, should they achieve it, is going to be that radical. Even if they manage to bring the UK out of the UK I am not sure much will change in UK or global politics for the masses. We will still be governed by people who have their own interests at heart instead of their voters.

I suppose that if the change you are looking for is lower immigration and an exit from the EU then UKIP are your party and you will see that as radical change. Personally I don't think it will make much difference to anything and therefore will not be radical. radical change to me is that those we vote for should represent our interests ahead of their own. UKIP are not going to achieve this.


Really if UKIP is political revolution, I can't see that the mainstream parties will be that worried as all they have to do is shift a little on a few policies and they are back in the saddle. Not that radical IMHO.

I have no doubt that your view is widely held, hence the swing to UKIP, but is it really that simple that they put their own interests ahead of those whom they represent. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of this, granted, not the least being the shameful spectacle of MPs lining their own pockets, while telling voters to exercise restraint over pay, for example, but much good is also done that we do not hear of. As MPs go, both the ex labour and the present conservative MP do get involved in many activities in this area, and my wife's school has benefitted.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail
We say we like politicians to speak the truth. If they do we don't vote for them!
We don't connect paying tax with getting good public services, We want low tax and good schools - it wont happen. Look at the tax they pay in Scandinavia
We voted for Thatcher for hundreds of years because she used North Sea Oil to give us tax cuts and cheap council houses. What she should have been doing is investing for the future but we were too short sighted to see that
We are anti Europe and anti immigrant without really having a clue about it. We just conveniently blame the EU and immigrants for everything. Most anti immigrant feeling is from communities who don't have any!
We think Farage is a "man of the people" when he is an ex city stockbroker who was privately educated
We think Milliband is privately educated when he actually went to a comprehensive

Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

I would agree broadly with your views.

The only thing I would like to point out is that, personally, I never voted for Thatcher. Or, to be more accurate, always took every opportunity to vote against her.

 

[Return of the Rev]

Over many elections i have voted for many partys sometimes on the same day!

 

[sahel]

I would agree broadly with your views.

The only thing I would like to point out is that, personally, I never voted for Thatcher. Or, to be more accurate, always took every opportunity to vote against her.

Thank you for agreeing - there hasn't been much of that. the thing I find sad (and here I go being arrogant again) is how much people do not seem to recognise where their interest lie

Why do people not insist on a higher minimum wage instead of obsessing about immigration or the EU?
Why do people accept companies and individuals avoiding tax? For example why do they go on buying from Amazon or using Starbucks? Why don't they go on and on about it until the politicains do something?
Why do people accept the growing inequality of income and wealth? How come they go on voting Tory rather than putting some backbone into Labour by saying in polls they want something done?
Why do people accept the iniquities around private education when it directly prejudices the life chances of their own children?
Why do people not argue for Scandinavian type tax levels when they would benefit so much from them?

I could go on........I just don't understand it though of course our old friend the press has a lot to do with it I think

 

[Triggaaar]

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail
We say we like politicians to speak the truth. If they do we don't vote for them!
...
Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

I agree with your general points, albeit without your political slant on it.

As voters, we are pretty stupid. If a politician gets something wrong, and admits it, we criticise them more than if they just pretended they were never wrong.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Thank you for agreeing - there hasn't been much of that. the thing I find sad (and here I go being arrogant again) is how much people do not seem to recognise where their interest lie

Why do people not insist on a higher minimum wage instead of obsessing about immigration or the EU? The three aren't mutually exclusive - you can hold a view on all three.
Why do people accept companies and individuals avoiding tax? For example why do they go on buying from Amazon or using Starbucks? Why don't they go on and on about it until the politicains do something? Anyone that pays into a pension avoids tax. Many people avoid tax when they bring in duty free goods. Surely that makes a huge nu8mber of people as guilty as Amazon ? Like it or not, tax avoidance or efficiency isn't illegal, you could argue it's immoral. If so I assume your going to voluntarily pay back all tax relief you've received on pension payments ? Or is it just other people who need to sort their moral compass ?
Why do people accept the growing inequality of income and wealth? How come they go on voting Tory rather than putting some backbone into Labour by saying in polls they want something done? Why is it that you want people to attempt to change a right wing Labour party rather than the Tory party ?
Why do people accept the iniquities around private education when it directly prejudices the life chances of their own children? How exactly does private education prejudice other children ? If you scrapped private education there wouldn't suddenly be loads of extra money for state schools - more likely the exact opposite. If private education is so bad I assume you'll also be wanting to scrap private medical care and private pensions in favour of state offerings ?
Why do people not argue for Scandinavian type tax levels when they would benefit so much from them? Because some of us believe it's better for people to have more money in their own pocket with the decision on how to spend the money THEY earned rather than have big expensive government swallow up peoples money.

I could go on........I just don't understand it though of course our old friend the press has a lot to do with it I think

But as with your first post your implication is that right wing politics = bad while left wing politics = good. As Buzzer has pointed out, that makes you equally biased as those you accuse - just in the opposite direction.

 

[sahel]

But as with your first post your implication is that right wing politics = bad while left wing politics = good. As Buzzer has pointed out, that makes you equally biased as those you accuse - just in the opposite direction.

Unlike Amazon or Starbucks or many others I don't employ highly skilled tax accountants to work round the intent behind our laws. Relief on pensions was intended by our legislators - the avoidance by Amazon etc was not

The Tory party will be the last to change - the clue is in the name "conservative"

7% of children are privately educated. Have you not noticed how these people dominate politics, the professions, the judiciary. the military and the best universities. The taxpayer subsidise these privileged few. Why?

 

[Hastings gull]

Thank you for agreeing - there hasn't been much of that. the thing I find sad (and here I go being arrogant again) is how much people do not seem to recognise where their interest lie

Why do people not insist on a higher minimum wage instead of obsessing about immigration or the EU?
Why do people accept companies and individuals avoiding tax? For example why do they go on buying from Amazon or using Starbucks? Why don't they go on and on about it until the politicains do something?
Why do people accept the growing inequality of income and wealth? How come they go on voting Tory rather than putting some backbone into Labour by saying in polls they want something done?
Why do people accept the iniquities around private education when it directly prejudices the life chances of their own children?
Why do people not argue for Scandinavian type tax levels when they would benefit so much from them?

I could go on........I just don't understand it though of course our old friend the press has a lot to do with it I think

Thanks for this. I am sure you will receive more agreement now that you have decided to omit the one-sided political stance about which paper to read. I still think you are being rather too simplistic in your alternatives -how do you know that folk do not care about the minimum wage AND the EU? They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps most people buy from Amazon as they find it convenient due to work and time pressures and they presumably find that they offer a good deal - that does not necessarily imply that folk agree with them avoiding tax - did you mean another word by the word, as avoiding tax is quite legal? Can you honestly say that you have not try to avoid tax. I certainly agree that it is an anomaly that people try to avoid tax -and not just the dreaded ruling classes - yet, as I always put it, expect the ambulance to be there in 8 minutes. But that is life and will always be so, and though it is undoubtedly also used as an excuse to avoid one's obligations, there is clear frustration when tax payers see that there is fraud and determination by thousands to milk the benefits system. I was fascinated by your comment about private education -again, you offer no evidence for your statement. What do you mean?

 

[Buzzer]

Unlike Amazon or Starbucks or many others I don't employ highly skilled tax accountants to work round the intent behind our laws. Relief on pensions was intended by our legislators - the avoidance by Amazon etc was not

The Tory party will be the last to change - the clue is in the name "conservative"

7% of children are privately educated. Have you not noticed how these people dominate politics, the professions, the judiciary. the military and the best universities. The taxpayer subsidise these privileged few. Why?

You want to know the problem? It isn't public school types, it's the professional politicians who haven't done anything in their adult life outside of politics. 33% of Tory candidates and 48% of Labour candidates at the next elections fall into this category. Have a read of this, it makes for shocking reading: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11251185/Can-we-stop-the-rise-of-the-career-politician.html

This graph is even more damning.

This is why politicians are distrusted and why they do not understand us, the electorate. It's why you get attitudes such as Thornberry's.

 

[sahel]

Thanks for this. I am sure you will receive more agreement now that you have decided to omit the one-sided political stance about which paper to read. I still think you are being rather too simplistic in your alternatives -how do you know that folk do not care about the minimum wage AND the EU? They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps most people buy from Amazon as they find it convenient due to work and time pressures and they presumably find that they offer a good deal - that does not necessarily imply that folk agree with them avoiding tax - did you mean another word by the word, as avoiding tax is quite legal? Can you honestly say that you have not try to avoid tax. I certainly agree that it is an anomaly that people try to avoid tax -and not just the dreaded ruling classes - yet, as I always put it, expect the ambulance to be there in 8 minutes. But that is life and will always be so, and though it is undoubtedly also used as an excuse to avoid one's obligations, there is clear frustration when tax payers see that there is fraud and determination by thousands to milk the benefits system. I was fascinated by your comment about private education -again, you offer no evidence for your statement. What do you mean?

The answer is in the previous post. Ironically most private schools were established back in the 1800s to help the poor. They have been hijacked by the well off (and overseas students) but still the public subsidises them through training their staff and tax and business rate reliefs. Why?

 

[sahel]

You want to know the problem? It isn't public school types, it's the professional politicians who haven't done anything in their adult life outside of politics. 33% of Tory candidates and 48% of Labour candidates at the next elections fall into this category. Have a read of this, it makes for shocking reading: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11251185/Can-we-stop-the-rise-of-the-career-politician.html

This graph is even more damning.

This is why politicians are distrusted and why they do not understand us, the electorate. It's why you get attitudes such as Thornberry's.

I agree with you (now there's a first). However Emily Thornbury grew up in a council house and does not fall in the category that you talk about. She made a mistake - a flippant comment that says nothing of note really - but I think she was a really good soul and it is a great pity she has been removed. Another example of mob rule

 

[Buzzer]

The answer is in the previous post. Ironically most private schools were established back in the 1800s to help the poor. They have been hijacked by the well off (and overseas students) but still the public subsidises them through training their staff and tax and business rate reliefs. Why?

Eton, Harrow and Rugby were set up to help the poor but hijacked by the well-off? Blimey, that's news to me.

 

[beorhthelm]

I could go on........I just don't understand it though of course our old friend the press has a lot to do with it I think

no, its quite clear you don't understand it. just because you hold these concerns, it doesn't mean you are right about them, others take different views. for example, people accept the "growing inequality of income and wealth" because firstly its not notable to the vast majority and secondly most people's wealth increases anyway. its a navel gazing exercise that's based on manipulation of stats and numbers in academic circles and not necessarily a real world issue. or maybe your view is simply wrong, for example you believe Amazon is evading tax, when in reality they simply don't make a lot of money. yes, the press has a lot to do with this, as they will regurgitate half-truths and ideological statements over and over until the population think they are correct.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree with you (now there's a first). However Emily Thornbury grew up in a council house and does not fall in the category that you talk about. She made a mistake - a flippant comment that says nothing of note really - but I think she was a really good soul and it is a great pity she has been removed. Another example of mob rule

She most certainly DOES fall into the category I talked about. That graph and those statistics relate to what people have done in their adult life. You can't blame people for where their parents send them to school or how rich their folks are. Better to look at the life choices they make as adults and what experience they have of real work. She left uni, became a human rights lawyer before becoming a Labour MP. No experience of life outside the political world.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

How're you all getting on? Oh

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The answer is in the previous post. Ironically most private schools were established back in the 1800s to help the poor. They have been hijacked by the well off (and overseas students) but still the public subsidises them through training their staff and tax and business rate reliefs. Why?

So are you suggesting scrapping private schools ? I'm not adverse to the idea of the business rate relief being stopped but I would want to see a detailed study of any effect it would have on state schools rather than the idea just being a Labour sound bite.

 

[Hastings gull]

How're you all getting on? Oh

Go away -we are all enjoying this!