Film shows Nigel Farage calling for move away from state-funded NHS

[Hastings gull]

You seem stuck on the FREE bit, although it cost us something above £100 billion annually, which is as far away from free as you could ever know.

The quality of care and its execution is key for me, however it is delivered.

Yes, you are quite right -only those who cannot/will not pay get the service for free. Because you can walk into the surgery/clinic etc and pay nothing, we do tend to think it is all free, whereas a chunk of our taxes pay for it, and this can be easily forgotten. Of course, the quality of care is crucial irrespective of the system - to be fair to the post to whom you were responding, the moral test of our society is whether everyone can access top quality care.

 

[Braggfan]

You seem stuck on the FREE bit, although it cost us something above £100 billion annually, which is as far away from free as you could ever know.

The quality of care and its execution is key for me, however it is delivered.

It costs the tax payer not the individual which is the key to me. It's all well and good saying the standard of care in Germany is amazing and that's what we shoud aspire to, but the fact is it was last year or the year before that the figures released showed that one in four kids in Brighton live below the national poverty line. I don't doubt that paying for insurance gets a better standard of care but clearly there are a lot of people who would struggle to pay for insurance and struggle to get a decent level of care. Improve the NHS by all means, that is clearly a good thing, but improve it for all not just those who can afford to pay.

 

[BigGully]

It costs the tax payer not the individual which is the key to me. It's all well and good saying the standard of care in Germany is amazing and that's what we shoud aspire to, but the fact is it was last year or the year before that the figures released showed that one in four kids in Brighton live below the national poverty line. I don't doubt that paying for insurance gets a better standard of care but clearly there are a lot of people who would struggle to pay for insurance and struggle to get a decent level of care. Improve the NHS by all means, that is clearly a good thing, but improve it for all not just those who can afford to pay.

I think we are going off piste here ....... and it is becoming a wholly politicised position you have, fine, but then you are unlikely to ever accept any real change whether beneficial or not.

 

[Braggfan]

I think we are going off piste here ....... and it is becoming a wholly politicised position you have, fine, but then you are unlikely to ever accept any real change whether beneficial or not.

Well it is politicised, not necessarliy on party lines, but as we all pay taxes it is political. And I am willing to accept change but not ever if it means healthcare is privatised. As said before in my view healthcare should be everyone not just those who can afford to pay for it.

 

[Hastings gull]

It costs the tax payer not the individual which is the key to me. It's all well and good saying the standard of care in Germany is amazing and that's what we shoud aspire to, but the fact is it was last year or the year before that the figures released showed that one in four kids in Brighton live below the national poverty line. I don't doubt that paying for insurance gets a better standard of care but clearly there are a lot of people who would struggle to pay for insurance and struggle to get a decent level of care. Improve the NHS by all means, that is clearly a good thing, but improve it for all not just those who can afford to pay.

This is the question that I posed, and hopefully someone can enlighten me. What happens if you cannot pay in a private system? Does it necessarily follow that your treatment is worse? I could believe that it does, but it is all too easy to fall into that line, when defending the NHS. I don't ever recall this being an issue in Germany, but could be wrong.

 

[Brovion]

You seem stuck on the FREE bit, although it cost us something above £100 billion annually, which is as far away from free as you could ever know.

The quality of care and its execution is key for me, however it is delivered.

No of course it isn't FREE, the same way as the travel vouchers on the Albion tickets aren't 'free'. But it is free at the point of delivery. You never visit your doctor and are asked "And how are you paying today?" You never have to wave your credit card at the paramedics if you've had an accident. That for me as i said earlier is the real 'red line'. With regard to how this 'freeness' is delivered, yeah, I'll listen to anything.

 

[beorhthelm]

You help to make my point. Your post perfectly describes what a dependent, irresponsible population is eventually reduced to.

Maybe you think government managed healthcare is required due to the issues described in your post, but I would say it's partly to blame for them.

my post is saying you cant rely on people to know how to spend their money well, nothing about being irresponsible. with most things this doesn't matter, its up to them, with health care it does matter. i dont believe government needs to manage healthcare, but the funding cant reasonably left to the individual without leaving large proportions of the population without.

...Am I to read into this that just because some people will not make the required effort or choose not to pay for insurance, we have the NHS, so that it is free at point of treatment and it can take away personal responsibility?

you mis-read, or i didn't put it well. some cant afford healthcare insurance, some could but would give it lower priority, some could but would risk it. other would take it and buy the wrong product, or for the wrong price. yet others would be mis-sold by accident and through fraud. once we've decided that we want to cover those (well maybe not the "risk it") we end up with a substantial state funded system anyway, so it makes sense to go all the way. where we need to reform NHS is how and where funds are spent.

 

[Hastings gull]

No of course it isn't FREE, the same way as the travel vouchers on the Albion tickets aren't 'free'. But it is free at the point of delivery. You never visit your doctor and are asked "And how are you paying today?" You never have to wave your credit card at the paramedics if you've had an accident. That for me as i said earlier is the real 'red line'. With regard to how this 'freeness' is delivered, yeah, I'll listen to anything.

Yes, I think most people would agree largely with it -how it is delivered is certainly the issue. We could broaden the issue and ask if it should be free or indeed given to those who are determined to put two fingers up the system. It must be very annoying for the emergency services to take the same people to A&E over and over again. But, probably best to leave this alone for today!

 

[Brovion]

Yes, I think most people would agree largely with it -how it is delivered is certainly the issue. We could broaden the issue and ask if it should be free or indeed given to those who are determined to put two fingers up the system. It must be very annoying for the emergency services to take the same people to A&E over and over again. But, probably best to leave this alone for today!

Oh I think they'll always be people who abuse it, the same way people abuse the benefits system as a whole. There is also the problem of violent drunks in A&E, and that can lead to a debate about whether smokers or heavy drinkers should pay for their treatment. My own view is we have to take the rough with the smooth and treat everyone the same.

 

[Hastings gull]

Oh I think they'll always be people who abuse it, the same way people abuse the benefits system as a whole. There is also the problem of violent drunks in A&E, and that can lead to a debate about whether smokers or heavy drinkers should pay for their treatment. My own view is we have to take the rough with the smooth and treat everyone the same.

Reluctantly, I agree in that where do you draw the line and so this must I suppose operate. At my NHS medical, the nurse said that I was obese -how dare she?! It was one of those height against weight computer things. I suppose that I might under other circumstances have been banned from treatment, if this is sort of thing is taken harshly, though it would ignore the fact that I walk two hours a day at least with my dog. On a more serious note, I was in A&E for the only time in my life, feeling really awful, and the I noticed that the staff were rushed off their feet. I said to the nurse how guilty I felt, as I as adding to their woes, and her reply was quite revealing - "I don't mind you being here, you are ill."

 

[BigGully]

No of course it isn't FREE, the same way as the travel vouchers on the Albion tickets aren't 'free'. But it is free at the point of delivery. You never visit your doctor and are asked "And how are you paying today?" You never have to wave your credit card at the paramedics if you've had an accident. That for me as i said earlier is the real 'red line'. With regard to how this 'freeness' is delivered, yeah, I'll listen to anything.

Well you could say that about any private insurances too, you pay at sometime for a service you might need at sometime the physical act of handing over money isn't the issue, I dont think many would advocate that.

 

[Hastings gull]

my post is saying you cant rely on people to know how to spend their money well, nothing about being irresponsible. with most things this doesn't matter, its up to them, with health care it does matter. i dont believe government needs to manage healthcare, but the funding cant reasonably left to the individual without leaving large proportions of the population without.



you mis-read, or i didn't put it well. some cant afford healthcare insurance, some could but would give it lower priority, some could but would risk it. other would take it and buy the wrong product, or for the wrong price. yet others would be mis-sold by accident and through fraud. once we've decided that we want to cover those (well maybe not the "risk it") we end up with a substantial state funded system anyway, so it makes sense to go all the way. where we need to reform NHS is how and where funds are spent.

Many thanks for this and I see you point. Left to their own devices, and where money is involved, I am sure that quite a fair few folk would do their utmost to avoid paying. Don't we hear that 1 in 20 motorists on our roads are uninsured, which I think was your example in an earlier post. I think what happens in German is that contributions to the Krankenkasse are taken from your gross salary, precisely to stop this. But I don't know what happens to those who are not in employment. Like in France, they have introduced a fee for every consultation with your GP, as they are presumably feeling the proverbial pinch.

 

[Brovion]

Well you could say that about any private insurances too, you pay at sometime for a service you might need at sometime the physical act of handing over money isn't the issue, I dont think many would advocate that.

No I don't think you could. There would still be the question of how are you paying, they'd need to know the company and your policy number so they could process the paperwork.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

What 'privatisation by stealth' do you talk about by the Conservatives? Ownership of hospitals? That's in the private sector's hands due to Blair's PFI fetish. Private cleaning companies? Outsourced by Labour in the early 2000s. Only continuing the policy....

Like hell do I trust Labour running the health service, just look at Wales; a very, very well run service indeed.

Hospital pharmacies losing tenders to private pharmacist companies because there is a tax loophole whereby private pharmacies can claim back the 20% VAT.
70% of private firms are winning NHS contracts which are put out for tender.
NHS competitive tendering is allowing Cameron and his cronies to reward big business by getting their fat sticky fingers in the pie at minimal cost and extract maximum profit.

 

[beorhthelm]

Hospital pharmacies losing tenders to private pharmacist companies because there is a tax loophole whereby private pharmacies can claim back the 20% VAT.

eh? medicines are exempt from VAT and therefore they cannot claim any VAT back. you are probably talking about outpatient medicines, where they are zero rated, and as the private company can claim back and the drug is administered out of hospital, a whole bunch of savings are realised for the NHS trust, while keeping a bed free for someone who needs it. someone pockets a fee to manage all this. win, win.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

eh? medicines are exempt from VAT and therefore they cannot claim any VAT back. you are probably talking about outpatient medicines, where they are zero rated, and as the private company can claim back and the drug is administered out of hospital, a whole bunch of savings are realised for the NHS trust, while keeping a bed free for someone who needs it. someone pockets a fee to manage all this. win, win.

The VAT loophole is where private pharmacies can claim back 20% VAT they pay suppliers for medicines , NHS pharmacies cannot.

 

[beorhthelm]

The VAT loophole is where private pharmacies can claim back 20% VAT they pay suppliers for medicines , NHS pharmacies cannot.

again the medicines administered in hospital are VAT exempt, so for the NHS it makes no difference, except getting a payment from the private company bidding to run the operation. this is a non-core operation, the NHS doesnt need to and shouldnt need to run pharmacy services if another organisation can do so more efficiently.

 

[GT49er]

I haven't got time to respond to all of your points as I'm very busy, but a couple of points:

The reason they don't test them is that there's nothing to test. Homeopathetic remedies are just tap water (or sometimes brandy), in a pretty bottle. I could set up my own homeopathic remedies company tomorrow and sell them anywhere.

I've seen a homeopathic "practitioner" use one of their "remedy makers", i.e. one of these things. http://www.sulisinstruments.com/
Basically they put a vial of water, or some "blank" tablets into a little dish (in a sealed bag), twiddle some dials, the machine buzzes and a few lights flash (but does absolutely nothing to the tablets/liquid ) and there you go, a homeopathic cure.

You earlier mentioned Chinese medicine which is a completely different thing and may well have something to offer. But homeopathy is guff.

I recognise your complete hostility to all homoeopathy, but in fact there is scientific reasoning behind some of it - the better bits, not what you might find from a quack homoeopath in a back street practice somewhere.

And it may surprise you to know that (proper) homoeopathy IS available on the NHS - The Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine (formerly the Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital) is an NHS hospital. I was once a patient there.

 

[sahel]

Why don't you wait for their manifesto to come out instead of jumping on the I hate Nigel Farage band wagon.
It was filmed in September 2012 so it hardly news. Is that the best they can find considering there is a By-election tomorrow.

Manifesto? Ah yes there's a thought. Wasn't the 2010 manifesto, signed off by Farage but not apparently read by him, described later by the man himself as complete rubbish? He was certainly right there. Is this another sign of a "refreshing new politics". You couldn't make it up could you except in UKIP's case you can and keep doing it until you hit upon something that seems popular

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Manifesto? Ah yes there's a thought. Wasn't the 2010 manifesto, signed off by Farage but not apparently read by him, described later by the man himself as complete rubbish? He was certainly right there. Is this another sign of a "refreshing new politics". You couldn't make it up could you except in UKIP's case you can and keep doing it until you hit upon something that seems popular

UKIP are a new party how about giving them a chance. UKIP are having to adapt quickly. Most of us know the 2010 manifesto was rubbish, so it was nothing new, but at least Farage admits that.