Film shows Nigel Farage calling for move away from state-funded NHS

[The Large One]

It's what the poster doesn't say that's being debated here. That poster doesn't deny any concept of privatisation. And seeing as even UKIP know that's a vote-loser, they're going to keep quiet about it.

Still at least it won't be a gear-crunch for Americans coming to live here, where they've always had to use private health insurance.

 

[beorhthelm]

With respect, I think you slightly over-state your case - whilst I fully agree that mis-selling is an ever-present danger, a fair percentage of people (hard to be accurate) can work things out for themselves, and cases such as we read about in the press are not necessarily the norm. Private health insurance works well for many people - if there should be such a thing, but that is another argument. . .

of course it would suit some people - just as some will buy decent beer, and some will read the packaging to realise the own-brand ibuprofen is exactly the same. the problem is how to address the large proportion who it wouldn't suit. that's before considering the perception of the cost going out of ones pocket, does everyone have house insurance? or even legally required and enforced car insurance? people will go without, and then we as a society will expect the state to provide some safety net... so we end up with a right dogs dinner. or US style healthcare.

Because of political dogma the NHS dismisses homeopathic medicine as a viable alternative to paying drugs companies billions of pounds. It doesn't help that doctors are held in such high regard by people that they are rarely challenged and the same doctors pour scorn on homeopathic treatments. They've worked for the Chinese for thousands of years well before there was a P&L balance sheet ever invented. People shouldn't dismiss it so readily and the NHS should offer mixed treatments - for starters it would be far cheaper but the stupidity and corruption of politicians and 'Chief Medical Officers' will no doubt prevent this.

its not dogma, its the complete lack of any scientific basis for homeopathy, and looking at the dilution its clearly a complete con. theres no active ingredient present. if you look at the claim mechanism, some sort of "memory", you have to bear in mind you'd be more likely to be exposed to toxins that way. i wouldn't put it in the same category as Chinese medicines, many of which are sound or have at least some basis (and available on NHS)

 

[BigGully]

But in certain circumstances it does work. Only because the world of science, which actually in this case means drugs companies, choose not to scientifically test it doesn't mean it doesn't work. I'm not for one minute saying it should replace high end life saving drugs more that it should be considered for non-life threatening conditions.

By your statement you're suggesting that only man made drugs can deal with medical complaints never anything natural.

No, I am saying that there has to be some level of science behind any claim before it can be deemed relevant to our overall health, let alone spending tax payers money.

There are so many quite outrageous anecdotal claims of healing that it is critical that there should be some decision process that assesses its validity.

I accept that pumping tablets into us isnt always the answer, but my god dont dismiss the brilliance of many of todays man made medicines.

 

[dingodan]

do you honestly think the general public can spend their money on healthcare any better? really? a population that buys products such as Carling Black Label, or pays £3 for a milky coffee? the vast majority of the population wouldnt have a clue about how to spend their healthcare insurance. and of course they wouldnt need to, they'd simply pay a premium to a nice looking company brochure. and that always works out ok for everyone, no chance of being mis-sold healthcare insurance is there?

if and when Nurofen leave the shelfs, then we might be in a place that hints the population are about ready to think about spending their own money on healthcare.

You help to make my point. Your post perfectly describes what a dependent, irresponsible population is eventually reduced to.

Maybe you think government managed healthcare is required due to the issues described in your post, but I would say it's partly to blame for them.

 

[dingodan]

Cracking post! Not to mention homeopathy and all the other utter horseshit that people spend their money on.

One day a government bureaucrat will decide that homeopathy should be available on the NHS, and then they are going to use your tax money to pay for it.

 

[Hastings gull]

of course it would suit some people - just as some will buy decent beer, and some will read the packaging to realise the own-brand ibuprofen is exactly the same. the problem is how to address the large proportion who it wouldn't suit. that's before considering the perception of the cost going out of ones pocket, does everyone have house insurance? or even legally required and enforced car insurance? people will go without, and then we as a society will expect the state to provide some safety net... so we end up with a right dogs dinner. or US style healthcare.

I am NOT being rude, just that I am not sure what point you are making at the end -it could well be me, I fully appreciate. Am I to read into this that just because some people will not make the required effort or choose not to pay for insurance, we have the NHS, so that it is free at point of treatment and it can take away personal responsibility? Some people undoubtedly do simply go their own way, and come the health showdown after years of neglect and refusal to listen to advice, then expect the state to bale them out.
As I say, I am just not sure.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No, I am saying that there has to be some level of science behind any claim before it can be deemed relevant to our overall health, let alone spending tax payers money.

There are so many quite outrageous anecdotal claims of healing that it is critical that there should be some decision process that assesses its validity.

Agreed. Now go and ask your doctor to prescribe a homeopathic alternative to man made drugs - they will refuse. Why ? Because the government refuse to test homeopathic remedies. Why ? Because it would eat into drugs companies multi-billion pound profits and doctors would no longer be 'incentivised' to write prescriptions for expensive drugs. It's a con from the top to the bottom. The NHS should be offering a mix of treatments not pandering to their drug making overlords.

 

[Notters]

One day a government bureaucrat will decide that homeopathy should be available on the NHS, and then they are going to use your tax money to pay for it.

It used to be, fortunately it isn't any more.

 

[Notters]

Agreed. Now go and ask your doctor to prescribe a homeopathic alternative to man made drugs - they will refuse. Why ? Because the government refuse to test homeopathic remedies. Why ? Because it would eat into drugs companies multi-billion pound profits and doctors would no longer be 'incentivised' to write prescriptions for expensive drugs. It's a con from the top to the bottom. The NHS should be offering a mix of treatments not pandering to their drug making overlords.

I haven't got time to respond to all of your points as I'm very busy, but a couple of points:

The reason they don't test them is that there's nothing to test. Homeopathetic remedies are just tap water (or sometimes brandy), in a pretty bottle. I could set up my own homeopathic remedies company tomorrow and sell them anywhere.

I've seen a homeopathic "practitioner" use one of their "remedy makers", i.e. one of these things. http://www.sulisinstruments.com/
Basically they put a vial of water, or some "blank" tablets into a little dish (in a sealed bag), twiddle some dials, the machine buzzes and a few lights flash (but does absolutely nothing to the tablets/liquid ) and there you go, a homeopathic cure.

You earlier mentioned Chinese medicine which is a completely different thing and may well have something to offer. But homeopathy is guff.

 

[BigGully]

Agreed. Now go and ask your doctor to prescribe a homeopathic alternative to man made drugs - they will refuse. Why ? Because the government refuse to test homeopathic remedies. Why ? Because it would eat into drugs companies multi-billion pound profits and doctors would no longer be 'incentivised' to write prescriptions for expensive drugs. It's a con from the top to the bottom. The NHS should be offering a mix of treatments not pandering to their drug making overlords.

I don't share the conspiracy theory of GP's blocking relevant treatments so that they can peddle drugs.

Generally science doesnt share your belief in the treatments you say, nor do I.

The problem with illnesses is that unless they are chronic or terminal they do improve, so any treatment within a cycle of illness might be seen as the cause of it's cure, its generally a vague set of circumstances rather than the actual treatment or remedy given by the homeopath that improved the initial issue.

Its worth noting that its generally mild illnesses that many seek alternative medicine, illnesses that unsuspectingly offer cycle improvement anyway, when we are hit with quite serious illnesses we tend to revert to science led medicines, many that ultimately save our lives.

 

[Braggfan]

Regardless of who any of us support in terms of political parties, the one thing all of of us should support is the NHS. It is absolutely the crown jewels in terms of things we should be proud of about being British. Any person from around the world who wonders what makes Britain so great, just needs to look at the NHS, anyone person who needs medical care gets its for free. I don't care what your politics are, everyone should be proud of it and everyone should be against it being dismantled.

 

[BigGully]

Regardless of who any of us support in terms of political parties, the one thing all of of us should support is the NHS. It is absolutely the crown jewels in terms of things we should be proud of about being British. Any person from around the world who wonders what makes Britain so great, just needs to look at the NHS, anyone person who needs medical care gets its for free. I don't care what your politics are, everyone should be proud of it and everyone should be against it being dismantled.

Now I have no political position on this, I suspect I would go for the status quo, but also if I was presented with aspects of private innovation within a massive blackhole of a department that might improve the service that too would get me going.

But seriously is this how we are genuinely seen/judged from the outside world, I have lived and worked in Europe and USA and I can honestly say that never once was this said to me, not once.

The times I used their health service it seemed slicker and less 'tired', perhaps they were leaving the poor to die on the streets outside but again I suspect that wasnt happening, I dont know but is the NHS untouchable, really ??

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I have lived and worked in Europe and USA and I can honestly say that never once was this said to me, not once.

The times I used their health service it seemed slicker and less 'tired', perhaps they were leaving the poor to die on the streets outside but again I suspect that wasnt happening, I dont know but is the NHS untouchable, really ??

We could certainly take a few lessons from the French that is for sure. I spend quite a lot of time in France and this summer needed to take my youngest son to the doctor. Wandered into the surgery at 4pm and was told I could have an appointment at 6.30pm that same day ( we weren't registered with them and this was a VERY small village). Spent 20 minutes with the doctor ( not the rushed 5 minutes here ) and had a hospital appointment for skin tests at 7.30am the next day and a prescription for drugs. Total cost - 20 Euros for the doctors visit and 3 euros for the drugs.

 

[Hastings gull]

Regardless of who any of us support in terms of political parties, the one thing all of of us should support is the NHS. It is absolutely the crown jewels in terms of things we should be proud of about being British. Any person from around the world who wonders what makes Britain so great, just needs to look at the NHS, anyone person who needs medical care gets its for free. I don't care what your politics are, everyone should be proud of it and everyone should be against it being dismantled.

Very few people would argue that the NHS has not been a force for the good, and it is indeed a very popular institution. I have benefitted from it, as you doubtless you have. The problem is that very often huge, impersonal, monolithic state-run bureaucracies, which it has become, are not always the most efficient organisations - there are vested interests, staff may refuse to change their working habits, and of course it is always the anonymous tax payer who fits the bill, so why care too much? Presumably (in my earlier thread) the people responsible for the scandalous waste of medication are not too bothered or else they would have taken action when repeatedly asked to do so. The use of the word "dismantled" is of course deliberate -it could just be that to do something different might improve the NHS. By all means lets keep the NHS, but have an open mind about what needs doing.

 

[Brovion]

Most people don't give a damn who owns the buildings, who cleans the floors, who cooks the food. When people talk about the NHS and privatisation, all they want to know is that when they walk through the door for treatment they aren't being asked for a policy number ...

Exactly. For me and I guess most people that is the real 'red line'. Just to muddy the waters slightly my wife's an NHS nurse and for her 'internal markets' rather than privatised services are the bane of her life. She's a community nurse and she once asked her managers what they thought the main job of the Nursing Team was. The answer was: "Making sure we don't lose the contract'.

 

[Hastings gull]

We could certainly take a few lessons from the French that is for sure. I spend quite a lot of time in France and this summer needed to take my youngest son to the doctor. Wandered into the surgery at 4pm and was told I could have an appointment at 6.30pm that same day. Spent 20 minutes with the doctor ( not the rushed 5 minutes here ) and had a hospital appointment for skin tests at 7.30am the next day and a prescription for drugs. Total cost - 20 Euros for the doctors visit and 3 euros for the drugs.

I too responded to the post that everyone should not want the NHS to be dismantled. I thought about mentioning that after 24 years in Germany, and experiencing the German system first-hand, there are other systems that work equally as well. That is not to say that we should dismantle the NHS necessarily, but accept that it could certainly be adapted to provide an even better service. I do ze Deutsch, and so can understand the locals -I have never heard praise. or criticism, of the NHS, so remain unconvinced that it is the envy of the world.

 

[Braggfan]

Now I have no political position on this, I suspect I would go for the status quo, but also if I was presented with aspects of private innovation within a massive blackhole of a department that might improve the service that too would get me going.

But seriously is this how we are genuinely seen/judged from the outside world, I have lived and worked in Europe and USA and I can honestly say that never once was this said to me, not once.

The times I used their health service it seemed slicker and less 'tired', perhaps they were leaving the poor to die on the streets outside but again I suspect that wasnt happening, I dont know but is the NHS untouchable, really ??

The NHS should be untouchable. There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve it and fixing the flaws but the notion of free healthcare should be the cornerstone of our society. Everyone keeps saying how this country is going to pot, and its not going to make things any better if we dismantle the NHS.

I'm not saying that's how we're seen around the world, as I'm aware some US citizens accuesd us of being communists when Obama was trying to bring his health care bill through, and whether people understand the notion of free health care isn't really our problem, but the fact that we are enlightened enough to say "EVERYONE in our society should get free medical care" is something to be proud of and it is something that morally puts us above some countries whether they see it or not.

The fact that our healthcare is for everyone is exactly why it doesn't matter what your politics are.

 

[Braggfan]

Very few people would argue that the NHS has not been a force for the good, and it is indeed a very popular institution. I have benefitted from it, as you doubtless you have. The problem is that very often huge, impersonal, monolithic state-run bureaucracies, which it has become, are not always the most efficient organisations - there are vested interests, staff may refuse to change their working habits, and of course it is always the anonymous tax payer who fits the bill, so why care too much? Presumably (in my earlier thread) the people responsible for the scandalous waste of medication are not too bothered or else they would have taken action when repeatedly asked to do so. The use of the word "dismantled" is of course deliberate -it could just be that to do something different might improve the NHS. By all means lets keep the NHS, but have an open mind about what needs doing.

I have no problem at all with dealing with the problems, that can only be a good thing. But in recent years we've seen education fees go through the roof, and if healthcare went a similar it would rip the hear and soul out of society. It would be a travesty is if people who can't afford insurance either get denied trreatment or lumbered with ludicrous medical bills that leave that trapped in debt.

 

[Hastings gull]

Thank you for your reply. This is one of the main -if not THE main, advantage of a system such as ours - in theory at least, you get the treatment, no questions asked. I am not quite sure that if a different system were to operate, it would rip the heart and soul of society - if this somewhat exaggerated claim were to be totally true, then there are an awful lot of soulless societies in the world! I am not an expert in this field and perhaps someone who has real knowledge of other systems might enlighten us? I know that in Germany, doctors have to treat you even if you present yourself at a clinic with no insurance, but am not sure what provision is routinely made for those who cannot/will not pay the premiums. Is this what the rumpus in the USA over Obama's bill was about?

 

[BigGully]

The NHS should be untouchable. There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve it and fixing the flaws but the notion of free healthcare should be the cornerstone of our society. Everyone keeps saying how this country is going to pot, and its not going to make things any better if we dismantle the NHS.

I'm not saying that's how we're seen around the world, as I'm aware some US citizens accuesd us of being communists when Obama was trying to bring his health care bill through, and whether people understand the notion of free health care isn't really our problem, but the fact that we are enlightened enough to say "EVERYONE in our society should get free medical care" is something to be proud of and it is something that morally puts us above some countries whether they see it or not.

The fact that our healthcare is for everyone is exactly why it doesn't matter what your politics are.

You seem stuck on the FREE bit, although it cost us something above £100 billion annually, which is as far away from free as you could ever know.

The quality of care and its execution is key for me, however it is delivered.