Another EU binfest....

[BigGully]

Your contribution so far to this thread is to bore me to death by calling me tiresome three times. Well done. I know you think I'm tiresome, and I don't care because you're a pompous, deluded no-mark on an internet message board.

Now if you haven't got anything else to say that is specific to the debate being held, could you please leave the grown ups alone to their complicated conversation?

I am finding it particularly hard to continue this debate with you, I think you might need to re-read our exchanges.

Quite clearly you're manner whilst discussing this doesn't do you any favours.

 

[Simster]

The EU's future lies with the Euro - that means the Euro needs saving and there's only one way of doing that - complete fiscal union. While the Euro is weak and damaged so is the EU. Personally I think, if we leave in the next few years, then we'll see more countries leave the EU. Countries like Sweden and Denmark will never sign up to fiscal union.

As for lack of war, IMO I'd suggest that has more to do with NATO and the treaties members have by belonging to that organisation ( which was formed well before the EU ).

Who said the EU's future lies with the Euro? I don't think that's true at all and never has been. In fact, it's nothing more than a derisory attempt from anti-EU people to move away from the point of contention and as such is a classic straw man argument.

A single currency can only work if you're prepared to accept hardship in some of the member states, and even then relies on converging economies. So the economies of Germany and Benelux might benefit from a single currency, but not those set up differently. So you see, I'm not arguing that a single currency across 500m disparate people is not going to work.

And I think your suggestion that NATO is more responsible than the EU for the lack of wars is a little naive.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

The EU doesn't have to have a single currency. It was doing OK without it. The EU has to change there is no question but I still believe that the UK is better in a changing EU than out and the news today seems to bear this out.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Its a strange irony, they have nothing to offer apart from a deteriorating position, yet they become the most vociferous defending their flawed position.

Christ they have been banging on about its virtues and they look a little silly right now.

Wake up and smell the Coffee, as the expression goes. Business leaders for the most part would not want us to leave the EU because they know how much more difficult for us life would be outside it. Nigel Farage pontificating about our trading relationships is way off the mark.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

All this pro EU propaganda is to pull the wool over our eyes. If we were to leave other countries would follow suit and the EU ends up with France and Germany babysitting what is left.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The EU doesn't have to have a single currency. It was doing OK without it. The EU has to change there is no question but I still believe that the UK is better in a changing EU than out and the news today seems to bear this out.

I've not seen anyone, pro or anti, argue that it's possible to dump the Euro and for the EU to survive ? You could argue that the Common Market was doing OK but the plan was never to have just a trading agreement. The plan was always complete fiscal and political union ( something Ted Heath has since admitted ).

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I've not seen anyone, pro or anti, argue that it's possible to dump the Euro and for the EU to survive ? You could argue that the Common Market was doing OK but the plan was never to have just a trading agreement. The plan was always complete fiscal and political union ( something Ted Heath has since admitted ).

I think for the Germans and French (but not necessarily for everyone else) it was but there are countries who have no intention of single currency who would leave before it happened (e.g. Poland)... yet it still works for them... and of course the EU worked in its way BEFORE there was an attempt to install a single currency.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

All this pro EU propaganda is to pull the wool over our eyes. If we were to leave other countries would follow suit and the EU ends up with France and Germany babysitting what is left.

Theres not much evidence of that. If it were true it certainly would be in the UKs favour but there is no other country actively considering coming out of the EU except, perhaps, Greece.

 

[BigGully]

Wake up and smell the Coffee, as the expression goes. Business leaders for the most part would not want us to leave the EU because they know how much more difficult for us life would be outside it. Nigel Farage pontificating about our trading relationships is way off the mark.

We can argue the toss about business leaders 'in or out' position, many were also telling us of the virtues of the Euro not so long ago.

You seem to forget what a market the UK is for the other member states, they cannot turn their backs and nor should they and if that's the reason for staying put then its a pretty weak minded position.

If your gonna make widgets cheaper and more efficiently than other member states then you will have a market in which to sell your goods, business will be fine.

 

[beorhthelm]

You're arguing a different point from the one I'm making. What I am saying is that beorhthelm's assertion that "a two-tier EU needs to be resolved" is absolute drivel.

not my personal assertion, just relaying the opinion of Lord Owen, pro-european and knows a thing or two. its a view widely seen in commentry on the economic situation: you cant resolve the euro's structrual problems without fiscal union, and thats going to be a hard sell to many in europe and impossible here.

your point about 40 years of single market highlights the issues perfectly, we need to go back to that trading bloc not ever deeper political integration.

 

[cunning fergus]

I appreciate your picture. Going back a few years, would it not be highly unlikely that we would have Honda, Toyota and Nissan opening manufacturing facilities in this country. And if we were to leave the EU, it would be quite possible for them to move those facilities abroad. And obviously the US will still want to sell us stuff, and the Germans will still want to sell us BMW's, but much of what matters is us EXPORTING to them.

You have trotted this myth out before so I will say it again................it is just as likely that companies will move the factories/jobs abroad if we stay in...................

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...d/9634350/Fords-closures-the-big-picture.html

Living in Southampton (assuming you do) you would be aware of the closure of the Ford Transit plant to move production to Turkey which as we know is not in the EU. Ergo, contrary to your belief, membership of the EU does nothing to prevent multi nationals closing their EU domicile plants to move them elsewhere and import their products back in...........NOTHING.

Its even worse when the EU funded the Ford factory in Turkey in the first place.......................

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=P-2012-010100&language=EN

If it wasn't for the tragic consequences that this decision on thousands of workers in the UK and in Europe it would be laughable...........almost as laughable as those who seek to defend the institutions in the first place. Safeguarding jobs my arse.

 

[GreersElbow]

This is just the Obama administration trying to quell anti-EU rhetoric, as they're incredibly pro-EU, which comes as no surprise.

I honestly don't understand this argument we'd be outside trade deals if weren't in then EU. Are we not capable of agreeing our own? The U.S has big stakes in the UK, it'll be harmful for them not to include us.

Also, everyone natters on about the economics of the EU, it has shown that on size fits all does not work. But I'm concerned about the political philosophy of sovereignty - the EU has more power than our national legislature, this IMO, not correct. The European Supreme Court, and the ECHR can overrule legislation and rulings made by our own judicial system. This undermines our self determination and shows we have little power to challenge the EU system.

The EU president is another worrying position, considering it isn't directly voted by the electorate, so there's no accountability neither is there any mechanism to remove them from power.

There's also a hell of a lot of daft legislation coming from them, the olive oil ruling was absurd given the climate the EU is in, which this month has hit its 6th quarter of shrinking.

Member states need their own legislatures to direct their economy, as they're the ones who understand their nations' economy best. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

I appreciate your picture. Going back a few years, would it not be highly unlikely that we would have Honda, Toyota and Nissan opening manufacturing facilities in this country. And if we were to leave the EU, it would be quite possible for them to move those facilities abroad. And obviously the US will still want to sell us stuff, and the Germans will still want to sell us BMW's, but much of what matters is us EXPORTING to them.

Even within Europe....(not the Euro)...we import more than we export to the EU...

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Theres not much evidence of that. If it were true it certainly would be in the UKs favour but there is no other country actively considering coming out of the EU except, perhaps, Greece.

It would set a precedent and citizens in other EU states will ask their Governments for referenda on a quick exit.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So, Merkel, the French bloke and now Obama have all said "go away you little man."

Brilliant.

 

[stripeyshark]

The US needs strong allies against China.
The US needs the EU to be strong.
For the EU to be strong, we need to be in it.
It's all about the US staying at the top, regardless of everyone else.
I say we leave the EU.
We won't be avoided when it comes to trade and our financial services will be protected.

 

[stripeyshark]

This is just the Obama administration trying to quell anti-EU rhetoric, as they're incredibly pro-EU, which comes as no surprise.

I honestly don't understand this argument we'd be outside trade deals if weren't in then EU. Are we not capable of agreeing our own? The U.S has big stakes in the UK, it'll be harmful for them not to include us.

Also, everyone natters on about the economics of the EU, it has shown that on size fits all does not work. But I'm concerned about the political philosophy of sovereignty - the EU has more power than our national legislature, this IMO, not correct. The European Supreme Court, and the ECHR can overrule legislation and rulings made by our own judicial system. This undermines our self determination and shows we have little power to challenge the EU system.

The EU president is another worrying position, considering it isn't directly voted by the electorate, so there's no accountability neither is there any mechanism to remove them from power.

There's also a hell of a lot of daft legislation coming from them, the olive oil ruling was absurd given the climate the EU is in, which this month has hit its 6th quarter of shrinking.

Member states need their own legislatures to direct their economy, as they're the ones who understand their nations' economy best. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels.

You're right about the sovereignty, but when it comes to it, parliament is all powerful and cannot be overruled. We choose to abide by the EU rules as a part of the treaties.

 

[cunning fergus]

You're right about the sovereignty, but when it comes to it, parliament is all powerful and cannot be overruled. We choose to abide by the EU rules as a part of the treaties.

No you are wrong.

Legal instruments such as EU Regulations can be imposed directly on EU citizens by the Commission, this means that laws can be made that go straight on the statute book without member states parliaments debating implications.

EU Directives on the other hand require transposition by local parliaments as they are imposed on the member states.

Good eh.............or to quote another poster "brilliant".

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You seem to forget what a market the UK is for the other member states.

If you're an EU member you'll be looking to deal with your fellow member states, ie your prefered partners, first and foremost. This is what trading blocs are all about, it's one reason you form them: to help yourself and each other.

 

[cunning fergus]

If you're an EU member you'll be looking to deal with your fellow member states, ie your prefered partners, first and foremost. This is what trading blocs are all about, it's one reason you form them: to help yourself and each other.

If you are correct about the motives behind the EU as a trading bloc, then it’s manifestly not working.

http://www.bne.eu/story5010/OECD_cuts_Eurozone_Emerging_Europe_growth_forecasts

Jobs are being lost because demand is shrinking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jan/11/honda-cuts-800-jobs-swindon

Demand is shrinking because there are countries in the trading bloc who have been irresponsible, for different reasons, and their economies are now in a death spiral.

http://www.economist.com/node/15838029

With shrinking demand so unemployment rises, with youth employment in Greece and Spain above 50%

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STAT-13-70_en.htm

Even the winners (the major exporters) are starting to feel the strain, with German exports at a 20 yr low with other EU member states.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontev...g-austerity-as-exports-fall-and-imports-tank/

Its not looking better in the future either...............

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/05/european-economy-guide

With anti EU sentiment rising across the EU..................

http://www.economist.com/node/21536873

and a headless chicken attitude to dealing with the EUs problems...............

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/17/savers-horror-troika-raid-cyprus

it is clear that the EU as a trading bloc is not to “help” each other...................