Michael Gove and the teachers

[Goldstone Rapper]

Perhaps one of you teachers out there could explain why about 17% of school-leavers are functionally illiterate and innumerate? Clearly this child-centred think for yourself type of education has failed them. Doesn't that bother you? Children learn things in different ways, perhaps many would benefit from rote type learning of facts and figures in a structured lesson.

What would worry me more is if this education secretary, like all his predecessors, was prepared to write off 17% of the population if it meant a quiet life. At least he is trying to do something about it which is more than you are.

Do you blame your 'child-centred' teachers for your poorly developed argument that confuses coincidence and causality? You are doing the Michael Gove tactic of using a truism (in your case: 'children learn things in different ways,' in his case 'constructive is better than just being critical' ) and try to shoehorn it onto a cartoon-like depiction of what is happening in schools (teachers having no interest in children's literacy and knowledge and teachers think they deserve to be unaccountable and unanswerable) which is unrecognisable from my experience of schools and nurseries that I have worked and volunteered at, and probably others with real world experience of education today.

 

[Winker]

Do you blame your 'child-centred' teachers for your poorly developed argument that confuses coincidence and causality? You are doing the Michael Gove tactic of using a truism (in your case: 'children learn things in different ways,' in his case 'constructive is better than just being critical' ) and try to shoehorn it onto a cartoon-like depiction of what is happening in schools (teachers having no interest in children's literacy and knowledge and teachers think they deserve to be unaccountable and unanswerable) which is unrecognisable from my experience of schools and nurseries that I have worked and volunteered at, and probably others with real world experience of education today.

Where in my poorly developed argument have I said this? All I have done is to highlight the fact that the current system of education has left a large section of the population at a disadvantage and if other systems can be tried then why not? Learning by rote is hardly 'destroying education in this country'.

 

[Winker]

My other half would like to give you a structured response to your criticism, however she is still working on he planning for tomorrow's lessons having started her working day at 8:00 this morning.

To turn your fact on its head, 83% of school leavers are literate and numerate. Teachers are not solely to blame for the 17% who are failing to grasp the basics. Parents need to take some of the responsibility. My other half teaches Year 2 and some of the parenting she deals with on a daily basis is mind boggling. Some parents are just not interested in their childs education. Its an attitude I find incredible. That is where the failing lies. Education does not just stop in the classroom. It begins in the home.

As the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water".

This of course is true, for every illiterate child there will be an equally illiterate and probably ignorant and stupid parent, maybe even two. This is the chain that must be broken. I guess in the past they would have been absorbed by the factories or put in uniform and sent off to war somewhere, neither of which are available today.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Where in my poorly developed argument have I said this? All I have done is to highlight the fact that the current system of education has left a large section of the population at a disadvantage and if other systems can be tried then why not? Learning by rote is hardly 'destroying education in this country'.

You began by calling out the teachers in this thread and you ended your post about 17% being 'functionally illiterate and innumerate' by suggesting that Gove is at least 'trying to do something about it which is more than you are.' Are teachers unbothered about their children's literacy and numeracy levels? (The point about teachers being depicted as thinking they should be unaccountable is an example of what Gove was doing in the video the OP posted on this thread).

I work in nursery education and within that the Tories are presiding over a system where Elizabeth Truss' plans to 'reform' childcare and Gove's attacked on play-based education are at odds with the revised Early Years Foundation Stage that came into effect under the Tories (which do not consider Maths and Literacy to be 'Prime Areas'), and where children's centres are closing down and the child to adult ratios will be worsened. It's a very messed up 'system' and the ideologically driven changes to schools are unsupported by any strong evidence base. Looking up Gove and Truss' backgrounds, it seems priorities in education policy are more governed by what were these two individuals' favourite subjects at school rather than the needs of the country as a whole.

 

[BadFish]

Where in my poorly developed argument have I said this? All I have done is to highlight the fact that the current system of education has left a large section of the population at a disadvantage and if other systems can be tried then why not? Learning by rote is hardly 'destroying education in this country'.

You have decided that the current system of education has left a large section of the population at a disadvantage because it doesn't include rote learning?

The reasons for the 17% being illiterate and innumerate are many and varied yet you have one thing

What evidence do you have to back this up?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Albert Einstein: "I never commit to memory anything that can be looked up in a book."

In these days of the internet, the need to be able to regurgitate dates of kings and queens is even more pointless.

 

[Winker]

You began by calling out the teachers in this thread and you ended your post about 17% being 'functionally illiterate and innumerate' by suggesting that Gove is at least 'trying to do something about it which is more than you are.' Are teachers unbothered about their children's literacy and numeracy levels?

I work in nursery education and within that the Tories are presiding over a system where Elizabeth Truss' plans to 'reform' childcare and Gove's attacked on play-based education are at odds with the revised Early Years Foundation Stage that came into effect under the Tories (which do not consider Maths and Literacy to be 'Prime Areas'), and where children's centres are closing down and the child to adult ratios will be worsened. It's a very messed up 'system' and the ideologically driven changes to schools are unsupported by any strong evidence base. Looking up Gove and Truss' backgrounds, it seems priorities in education policy are more governed by what were these two individuals' favourite subjects at school rather than the needs of the country as a whole.

I'd like to apologise to all teachers out there for this phrase, I'm afraid it slipped out when the red mist was down. My take on the situation was that Gove was merely stating that all children should be taught to read and write correct English and he got panned by the teaching profession for saying it. My daughter works in pre-school and spends half her 'time off' filling in useless forms to keep the paper-shufflers happy.

 

[kevo]

It irritates me the flak teachers get for working short days ('home at 4pm' etc) and having long holidays. Used to live with a teacher and every evening she was working till 10pm preparing lessons or marking and at weekends often had extra-curricular work to do. And imagine having to deal with stroppy teenagers all day. It is stressful and under-paid and they deserve a lot of credit. Most other jobs are well cushy by comparison, in my opinion.

 

[Winker]

You have decided that the current system of education has left a large section of the population at a disadvantage because it doesn't include rote learning?

The reasons for the 17% being illiterate and innumerate are many and varied yet you have one thing

What evidence do you have to back this up?

No - I'm saying the opposite. 17% of school leavers are illiterate and innumerate under the present system so other ideas should be tried. What's to lose?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I'd like to apologise to all teachers out there for this phrase, I'm afraid it slipped out when the red mist was down. My take on the situation was that Gove was merely stating that all children should be taught to read and write correct English and he got panned by the teaching profession for saying it. My daughter works in pre-school and spends half her 'time off' filling in useless forms to keep the paper-shufflers happy.

Apology accepted. At least from me!

I can't speak as much for school education but I know that the emphasis on reading and writing in English by Gove and Truss has gone down like a lead balloon within nursery education where the emphasis is quite rightly on personal, social and emotional development, physical development and communication and language. As for making people doing unnecessary paperwork, isn't this part of the charge that the union in the OP's linked video is making towards Gove? If so, I don't see why you are supporting him if you know what your daughter's going through.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

No - I'm saying the opposite. 17% of school leavers are illiterate and innumerate under the present system so other ideas should be tried. What's to lose?

I think you have a view that teachers only ever use one method in their teaching, and use it rigidly, which I'd cast doubt on based on what I know of teachers, having volunteered in primary schools and my experience of teachers who worked in nurseries. Personally, when I work with children, I use a variety of methods based upon my knowledge and understanding of a children's interest, attention-span, confidence, language skills, temperament, resilience, friendship groups, social skills etc.

 

[BadFish]

No - I'm saying the opposite. 17% of school leavers are illiterate and innumerate under the present system so other ideas should be tried. What's to lose?

You are still ignoring the other factors that effect a child' education.

 

[Commander]

Teachers do moan a lot. The idea that they don't work hard, get home at 4pm and get 12 weeks holiday a year is clearly nonsense, but they do get a fantastic amount of holiday and a great pension etc. Yes, they work hard in term time, but so do most professionals. As someone earlier said, it's no better or worse than another profession, it's just different. So stop moaning.

 

[BadFish]

Teachers do moan a lot. The idea that they don't work hard, get home at 4pm and get 12 weeks holiday a year is clearly nonsense, but they do get a fantastic amount of holiday and a great pension etc. Yes, they work hard in term time, but so do most professionals. As someone earlier said, it's no better or worse than another profession, it's just different. So stop moaning.

I take your point but the 'moaning' as you put it on this thread is because our profession is constantly attacked and blamed for societies failings. What you are describing as 'moaning' I would sau is people defending their profession against almost constant criticism from people looking for scapegoats on which to blame societies ills.

i think most people would be the same if they came in for as much unfair and unsubstantiated criticism as we do.

 

[Zebedee]

Teachers do moan a lot. The idea that they don't work hard, get home at 4pm and get 12 weeks holiday a year is clearly nonsense, but they do get a fantastic amount of holiday and a great pension etc. Yes, they work hard in term time, but so do most professionals. As someone earlier said, it's no better or worse than another profession, it's just different. So stop moaning.

You're right on the issue of holidays. My next door neighbour teaches primary school children at a private school in mid-Sussex for a very reasonable salary. I've no doubt that he works hard (he claims he does and is always moaning about the long hours) but the holidays that he enjoys each year have to be seen to be believed.

Autumn Term - 2 inset days
Half Term - 2 weeks
End of Term - 3 weeks

Spring Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 4 weeks

Summer Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 9 weeks

Total holidays - 20 weeks a year.

What other profession provides such generous holidays? I count myself lucky if I get 4 weeks a year. Effectively, my neighbour only works for around two-thirds of the year. Nice work if you can get it although I do recognise that there is a big difference in terms of pressure between teaching primary school children in a private school and teaching maths in a state secondary school.

 

[BadFish]

You're right on the issue of holidays. My next door neighbour teaches primary school children at a private school in mid-Sussex for a very reasonable salary. I've no doubt that he works hard (he claims he does and is always moaning about the long hours) but the holidays that he enjoys each year have to be seen to be believed.

Autumn Term - 2 inset days
Half Term - 2 weeks
End of Term - 3 weeks

Spring Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 4 weeks

Summer Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 9 weeks

Total holidays - 20 weeks a year.

What other profession provides such generous holidays? I count myself lucky if I get 4 weeks a year. Effectively, my neighbour only works for around two-thirds of the year. Nice work if you can get it although I do recognise that there is a big difference in terms of pressure between teaching primary school children in a private school and teaching maths in a state secondary school.

Might be worth your while to find out what happens on inset days too.

 

[sten_super]

You're right on the issue of holidays. My next door neighbour teaches primary school children at a private school in mid-Sussex for a very reasonable salary. I've no doubt that he works hard (he claims he does and is always moaning about the long hours) but the holidays that he enjoys each year have to be seen to be believed.

Autumn Term - 2 inset days
Half Term - 2 weeks
End of Term - 3 weeks

Spring Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 4 weeks

Summer Term - 1 inset day
Half Term - 1 week
End of Term - 9 weeks

Total holidays - 20 weeks a year.

What other profession provides such generous holidays? Effectively, my neighbour only works for around two-thirds of the year. Nice work if you can get it although I do recognise that there is a big difference in terms of pressure between teaching primary school children in a private school and teaching maths in a state secondary school.

As you probably know, state school teachers also get substantially less holiday, only(!) 13 weeks. I don't really begrudge them it (I'm married to a secondary school biology teacher); they do work very hard during term time, and typically spend a portion of at least 3 holidays a year (and some weekends) taking part in extra-curricular events for the benefits of the students. However I also recognise the view put forward by @Commander; amongst my wife's friends there is a great sense of entitlement. They complain about their poor pay, before jetting off for a 4 week summer holiday in the US (yes, someone actually did that); they also attempted to complain about the increased payments required for their pension scheme (they got pretty short shrift from me on that one). I understand a desire to protect what they have, and don't particularly blame them for it, but there should be some recognition of how their situation compares to other works in both the private and public sector, and in comparison to either they actually do pretty well (baseless criticism of them aside).

 

[Zebedee]

Might be worth your while to find out what happens on inset days too.

Sorry - I shouldn't have included inset days in my figures. I do know that these days contribute to a teacher's Learning & Development, which is important for all professions. They are not holidays.

 

[elbowpatches]

I'd like to apologise to all teachers out there for this phrase, I'm afraid it slipped out when the red mist was down. My take on the situation was that Gove was merely stating that all children should be taught to read and write correct English and he got panned by the teaching profession for saying it. My daughter works in pre-school and spends half her 'time off' filling in useless forms to keep the paper-shufflers happy.

Apology accepted. A lot of problems the teaching profession has is the common misconceptions by the public. The current government is doing a very good job at demonising the profession but also demanding more. Educational standards in Nov 2012 put the UK in 6th ahead of USA, France and Germany. Do we hear about that? No.

As for the 17% argument I would say that standards of teaching have improved since I started 17 years ago, children are better equipped so why 17% still? What is acceptable? 0%? That would be amazing and I would dearly like to be able to do that but it is impossible with such varied needs out there. Also, because a child does not achieve a L3 at the end of year six DOES NOT make them illiterate or innumerate however much politicians want it to. They might be able to read and calculate but not in a test condition.

 

[clapham_gull]

Albert Einstein: "I never commit to memory anything that can be looked up in a book."

In these days of the internet, the need to be able to regurgitate dates of kings and queens is even more pointless.

A single quote doesn't anything. I'm no fan of Michael Give but I was glad when I started learning dates and Monarchs.

Not at school under the Tories mind.

Before I did my actual degree, I spent a year on another at East London Polytechnic as was. Cultural Studies it was called. When people talk about Political correctness these days I laugh. They don't know the half of it. When preparing students for an essay, the lecturers used to photocopy all the relevant articles as not to disadvantage those who had yet to find the library.

Between lectures entitled finding homoeroticism in 17th art and feminism during the English revolution we were taught STRAIGHT HISTORY.

Because it put everything into context.

So there you go. The only time I was taught traditional history was by Marxists in Stratford.