[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[darkwolf666]

Well as said before it's the analysis of the CSJ. That's where the source of the information comes from

So the article doesn’t break down the figures. So what you basically have is a right leaning newspaper publishing a report by a right leaning think tank, whose findings just happen to be right biased, and it would appear devoid of detail… have I got that right?

 

[BadFish]

He did also f@ck a pig to be fair

And cause an economic disaster.

still bettet than Truss and Johnson though, oh and Farage.

 

[TomandJerry]

BBC and Al Jazeera for me. The advantage with the BBC is you can pick out the sub conscious angles that some write from. They are more transparent. It has flaws, but is probably the closest thing to independent media we have.

BBC is a good one I like to read also, I'm trying to figure out if I should give the Financial Times a go

 

[TomandJerry]

So the article doesn’t break down the figures. So what you basically have is a right leaning newspaper publishing a report by a right leaning think tank, whose findings just happen to be right biased, and it would appear devoid of detail… have I got that right?

Perhaps I have too much trust with newspapers, because when I see a newspaper report something I'd like to assume it's correct and not total baloney.

 

[BadFish]

Not sure, but it's not only Reform using this term about net zero:

"BlackRock, the world's biggest asset manager, has declared there is no longer any need to shout about net zero in the latest sign of its retreat from so-called woke capitalism."

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...es-U-turn-net-zero-scales-woke-investing.html

Jesus H Christ!!!

You are on a wind up

 

[TomandJerry]

It is owned by a consortium from Abu Dhabi.
It was previously owned by the Barclay brothers.

Ah - I didn't know that.

It's like a maze, difficult to know sometimes.

Thanks for the response

 

[TomandJerry]

Jesus H Christ!!!

You are on a wind up

I was simply pointing out that Net Zero was being referred to as woke by multiple sources

 

[Guinness Boy]

I was simply pointing out that Net Zero was being referred to as woke by multiple sources

About time you rebooted ready for tomorrow.

 

[BadFish]

When you say 'decency', I think you mean 'going back on his word that he wouldn't step down even if the referendum went for Brexit'.

Or making tax payers foot the bill for the banking sectors mistakes while they still recored record profits and massive bonuses.

Still nothing disastrous happened because of this.

Still better than Johnson and Farage though.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But I'm sure you can understand the frustration that some working people have who are on a minimum wage job but know someone on benefits earns more?

Work has to pay, otherwise what's the incentive?

I accept that.

But.... perspective.
Someone with a spinal injury....the state could institutionalize them (very costly)... or
Spend lots to support their living so they can be quasi independent . . . and work....

I am immune from the bitch gene of politics of envy.
We just need to do the best we can....
and let the system help those who need it.

Benefits envy is not a hill I chose to die on.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ah - I didn't know that.

It's like a maze, difficult to know sometimes.

Thanks for the response

I am supportive of you quest to find out things.
It is a bewildering world.

 

[BadFish]

I mean, I'd like to think that whoever funded it, the article is accurate in what they are saying.

So why don't you fact check it?

 

[Bodian]

I can’t read the article, behind a paywall, but I am guessing the path of trajectory as it’s The Telegraph!

I ask again, which benefits pay more than minimum wage?

The top level of adult sickness benefit (PIP) works out at £9,750 per annum, what other “sickness” benefits have The Telegraph added on to make their headline story!

From the article cited by @TomandJerry :
Analysis by the Centre for Social Justice think tank found people on the top level of sickness benefits now earn an average of £23,900 a year while those on the minimum wage take home just £20,650 after tax.
The CSJ’s figures compare the earnings of somebody on sickness benefits with those of a fit person in a minimum wage job who is receiving no handouts.
People signed off with long-term ill health can claim more than double the usual rate of basic Universal Credit as well as housing allowance.
Those whose condition means they have difficulty doing everyday tasks can also claim Personal Independent Payments worth up to £9,600 a year.

However, according to the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj924xvzrr2o#:~:text=The basic level of universal,top up worth £416.19.
The basic level of universal credit is worth £393.45 a month to a single person who is 25 or over. But if you have limited capacity to work because of a disability or long term condition, this payment more than doubles, because of an extra top up worth £416.19.

So, that would be £809.64 a month or £9,716 pa. Added to the maximum PIP equals £19,315. So, housing benefit would need to be £4,600pa. It couldn't be more, as there is a 'benefit cap' https://www.gov.uk/benefit-cap/benefit-cap-amounts - which is £14,750. That limits the basic UC and housing benefit (not the PIP). So it's really the £14,750 plus £9,716 they are looking at, which is near enough their £23,900.

Getting the full PIP is quite difficult now, and it isn't really a 'lifestyle choice'.


Edited after initially posting, as I misread the BBC and didn't see that it said 'an extra top-up'

Absolutely. Am I wrong to think an established newspaper tells misinformation and false truths?

Yes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Jesus H Christ!!!

You are on a wind up

I don't think so. He asks questions.
If some of the rest of us have some useful answers we can share them.
That's how it can work.

 

[BadFish]

I don't think so. He asks questions.
If some of the rest of us have some useful answers we can share them.
That's how it can work.

Yeah maybe H, something's not ringing true though.

Maybe I should give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So why don't you fact check it?

That is a good question.
@TomandJerry, why not dig a bit into what you see reported?

I was examining a student today.
I looked up some of the 'facts' they had cited to inform their narrative.
Turns out the data did not allow the conclusions others had drawn.
And the student was using second hand inferences.
So their narrative was perverse.
So I marked them down for whimsical 'scholarship'.
Turns out they were trying to find out how up had occurred when it was actually down.

Research is time consuming but worth the effort.
Some questions don't really need to be asked

 

[darkwolf666]

From the article cited by @TomandJerry :
Analysis by the Centre for Social Justice think tank found people on the top level of sickness benefits now earn an average of £23,900 a year while those on the minimum wage take home just £20,650 after tax.
The CSJ’s figures compare the earnings of somebody on sickness benefits with those of a fit person in a minimum wage job who is receiving no handouts.
People signed off with long-term ill health can claim more than double the usual rate of basic Universal Credit as well as housing allowance.
Those whose condition means they have difficulty doing everyday tasks can also claim Personal Independent Payments worth up to £9,600 a year.

However, according to the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj924xvzrr2o#:~:text=The basic level of universal,top up worth £416.19.
The basic level of universal credit is worth £393.45 a month to a single person who is 25 or over. But if you have limited capacity to work because of a disability or long term condition, this payment more than doubles, because of an extra top up worth £416.19.

So, that would be £809.64 a month or £9,716 pa. Added to the maximum PIP equals £19,315. So, housing benefit would need to be £4,600pa. It couldn't be more, as there is a 'benefit cap' https://www.gov.uk/benefit-cap/benefit-cap-amounts - which is £14,750. That limits the basic UC and housing benefit (not the PIP). So it's really the £14,750 plus £9,716 they are looking at, which is near enough their £23,900.

Getting the full PIP is quite difficult now, and it isn't really a 'lifestyle choice'.


Edited after initially posting, as I misread the BBC and didn't see that it said 'an extra top-up'

Yes.

Thank you for doing something that @TomandJerry seemed to find impossible, provide some detail from The Telegraph article.

I would like to correct an error in your assessment though. The benefit cap doesn't apply to those on PIP, as per the example being used.

Benefit cap

There is a limit on the total amount of benefit that most people aged 16 to under State Pension age can get - benefits affected, benefit cap amount.

www.gov.uk

You can tell the direction of the article, when they use the phrase "handout", with its deliberate negative connotation. I would also like to know, why the article talks about the person on "sickness benefit" being entitled to other assistance, like housing costs, yet states the person on minimum wage receives no "handouts" - why? as on minimum wage they would be entitled to consideration for things like housing costs too, of course unless they don't have any? The same would clearly also apply to the person on "sickness" benefits and their housing.

As you have said being awarded PIP is an onerous task, which is about to get much harder - the vilification of those on disability benefits was already bad enough, under the previous government, as apparently everyone has a story of knowing someone who knows someone who gets given loads of stuff and a new car every three years and other such stories. Now with the current governments attempts to reign in public spending, it's about to get a lot worse, with papers like The Telegraph wetting themselves, knowing that Labour can't challenge this rhetoric, as they are promoting it themselves.

I would like to further add that what the paper and it appears others like Mr. Farage don't take into account, is that PIP is inteded to be used by the recipient to make their lives less challenging, and to overcome some of the hurdles that a disability creates. In many cases the additional payment (not the UC top up) allows a disabled person to be able to get to work, the Motability scheme being an important part of this for many.

As you point out, being awarded PIP ISN'T a lifestyle choice, and is the result of having a long term, if not life long, condition that makes operating in the "normal" world difficult.

 

[darkwolf666]

I don't think so. He asks questions.
If some of the rest of us have some useful answers we can share them.
That's how it can work.

Normally I'm right behind you @Harry Wilson's tackle, but I think you have misread the room on this occasion, they seem to be playing us for fools, not just asking questions.

 

[TomandJerry]

So why don't you fact check it?

Because if I had to fact check every article I read id be spending more time fact checking than reading the news

 

[TomandJerry]

Yeah maybe H, something's not ringing true though.

Maybe I should give the benefit of the doubt.

I sometimes find it easier to get the answers I'm looking for through a debate rather than reading through lots of information, I admit I can be guilty of misreading the room but do so with no ill intent

I appreciate it when people clarify or have helped me with something I've misunderstood