rogersix
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2014
- 8,349
the russian empire becoming a failed state would seem to do it.
[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
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papachris
Well-known member
Strongly agree. This is what Russia does when they occupy a country
Soviet deportations from Estonia - Wikipedia
- Aug 24, 2020
- 8,576
Unfortunately this thread is becoming derailed with posts about Rdodge30, with well intentioned posts designed to correct his many misconceptions.
I'm sure this is not what anyone except Rdodge30 wants.
I'm sure this is not what anyone except Rdodge30 wants.
I've learned to be patient these past three years.
Yes
, and that requires a continuation of sanctions, continued attacks on their oil storage, and a strong defence in the meantime.
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,445
- Thread starter
- #24,707
Sadly, Russia now has friends in high places....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o
Witkoff seems to have been turned.
Witkoff seems to have been turned.
It's the chain of command...we mustn't be suprised anymore
Putin ->Trump->Witkoff and everyone in Trump's administration
- Aug 24, 2020
- 8,576
That's an extraordinary article. It's a grim read, but we should all read it and process it.
I suppose that at least we know where Ukraine and Europe stand. Of course, Ukraine doesn't have to accept any peace plan approved by Trump/Witkoff.
Equipped with this window into the future, Ukraine can make informed decisions about its defence, and liaise and plan ahead with Europe.
It is indeed - very scary. Europe at some point needs to publically call out the Trump administration as being all pro Russian.
I thought I was very clear that it in no way justifies the actions, but that there are parts of Ukraine that consider themselves ethnically Russian. That there was a tiny seed of truth for the lie to grow around
I believe very few of them actually want to be part of Russia.
Meanwhile it appears the US plan for peace is just to give up on the seized land which is absolutely dispicable/entirely reasonable. *
*Delete depending on which conflict you're talking about.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 8,576
Vegster, it might be worth observing, that when you began this thread three and a quarter years ago, none of us could have foreseen the twists and turns the war and the peace would take.
Here we are today, with a form of 'peace' on the horizon, albeit a peace which rewards the aggressor and punishes the victim, and which goes against the grain of natural justice. Nevertheless, a ceasefire with a bloodied Russia only holding 20% of Ukraine.
But Ukraine is very much still alive. Europe has woken up. And I suspect that Russia is considerably weaker than it would like us to believe.
The war isn't over.
It makes no difference whether they're smiling or have a face like thunder, they're just meeting with the leader of another country. They're not agreeing to give him another country's land, or to remove sanctions, or to stop calling him a war criminal. I'm not sure why you think those photos are relevant to anything.
Of course Zelenskyy, Macrom and Starmer do. Helping Ukraine in this war is costing British and French taxpayers a lot of money. We have nothing to gain except trying to stop an evil warmonger. And Zelenskyy could have chosen the Lukashenko route, pocketed a shit ton of money and just agreed to run Ukraine under Putin's orders. Instead he's put his own life at huge risk (he's probably Putin's target number one) for the benefit of Ukraine.
Winston Churchill stood up to Hitler to defend freedom across Europe. Do you also claim that Churchill didn't care about the people attacked by Hitler?
Where on earth do you get that ridiculous belief from? Trump wants deals that benefit him and the US, whereas the others get no benefit for either themselves or their country. Your opinion is far removed from logic or reality.
That's fair, you could oppose evil and be a bad person, or you could oppose evil and be a good person. Taken on it's own it's not proof either way. But Trump is siding up with evil, and that is proof that he's a bad person, while we can't conclude on the others.
What evidence do you have that Macron and Starmer don't want peace? The only evidence that you can possibly have is that they haven't rolled over and tolled Putin he can have all of Ukraine as long as he pinky winky promises not to go further.
You can't be serious? You're only correct on Trump. Trump wants the money a) to come from someone else and b) wants it spent on American weapons, whereas Starmer and Macron are actually offering to donate the money, and don't much care where it's spent. We have been happy to buy US weapons, although that is now in question because Trump is limiting how we can use those weapons, which means the likes of France and Britain will have to provide more weapons. But still, we'll be donating to aid Ukraine, not profiting from it.
As for Zelenskyy, he doesn't want anything for himself, he wants help to protect his people from Russia. How can that be a bad thing?
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GoldstoneVintage
Well-known member
I wonder where Witless/Wankoff's Russian sympathies come from. 
- Nov 11, 2009
- 13,053
Trump envoy Steve Witkoff dismisses Starmer plan for Ukraine
Steve Witkoff says the UK plans for an international force to support a ceasefire are a "posture".
www.bbc.co.uk
GoldstoneVintage
Well-known member
Because in a world without rules, might is right. And at this moment the US is by far the mightiest.
Are you saying that the one person you met, who considered himself Russian-Ukrainian, is evidence that there are parts of Ukraine where the majority of people consider themselves ethnically Russian? There are some Ukrainian citizens who were born in Russia, just as there are British citizens born abroad, but that doesn't mean anything Witless said had an element of truth in it.
While I know you don't support what he says, and you don't believe the areas want to be part of Russia, the fact that some people in Ukraine speak Russian does not mean there's a single element of truth in this total lie:
"They’re Russian-speaking, there have been referendums where the overwhelming majority of the people have indicated they want to be under Russian rule. I think that’s the key issue in the conflict.”
Ukraine has the moral high-ground, but that seems to be counting for little these days. What would happen if Ukraine announced that if Russia's attacks on civilians didn't stop, then Ukraine would conduct the same attacks on Moscow?