[News] We want our Marbles back, we want our Marbles back...

[clapham_gull]

Hong Kong was on a 99 year lease and now given back.

If you knew that, why did you lump it in with Gibraltar?

I'd give Gibraltar back. Each to their own, but if you long for a Disney vision of an identikit 1980s English any town there is always Croydon.

The food, beer and wine would improve overnight.

As for the Falklands an odd one. Argentina clearly has no claim, but it costs this country a lot of money which is why the Thatcher Government looked at offloading it.

There is a clear sense of hypocrisy in my mind if you moan about the cost of benefits, asylum seekers and don't talk about the Falklands. Take a look per resident per year the Islands is costing us.

 

[clapham_gull]

The precedent argument is bollocks. The Parthenon is unique.

It's akin to the Greeks owning half of Stonehenge and claiming they are looking after it because the Brits have left the rest out in the rain.

It's a national embarrassment.

 

[Zeberdi]

The precedent argument is bollocks. The Parthenon is unique.

It's akin to the Greeks owning half of Stonehenge and claiming they are looking after it because the Brits have left the rest out in the rain.

It's a national embarrassment.

Or maybe akin to Britain being invaded and subsequently occupied by the Romans and Stonehenge being taken back to Rome and eventually stuck in the Vatican museum in perpetuity?

It’s a moot point really though - for the sake of good relations with Greece, I think we should offer them back as a goodwill gesture even though the legal title to them allegedly rests with Britain. The World has moved on, cultural heritage is increasingly important for people as societies become more culturally diverse. Countries‘ artifacts should be returned if they were effectively ransacked by occupying forces (IMO!).

Will the British Museum Ever Return These Stolen Artifacts? | HISTORY

Countries are calling on the museum to return looted items like the Rosetta Stone, the Elgin Marbles and 4,000 bronze sculptures from the Kingdom of Benin.

www.history.com

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I'd give Gibraltar back. Each to their own, but if you long for a Disney vision of an identikit 1980s English any town there is always Croydon.

The food, beer and wine would improve overnight.

As for the Falklands an odd one. Argentina clearly has no claim, but it costs this country a lot of money which is why the Thatcher Government looked at offloading it.

There is a clear sense of hypocrisy in my mind if you moan about the cost of benefits, asylum seekers and don't talk about the Falklands. Take a look per resident per year the Islands is costing us.

I'm sure I've read that if you take the cost of defence out (which is clearly disproportionatley inflated) the Falklands is as economically viable as any other part of Britain, if not moreso. And they'd probably do a lot better if their nearest neighbour weren't a basketcase which occasionally stops flying there or being in any way cooperative for no good reason.
In any case, if we chucked out all the parts of Britain that didn't make a net contribution to the exchequer we'd be left with the Square Mile, Canary Wharf and Aberdeen.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Or maybe akin to Britain being invaded and subsequently occupied by the Romans and Stonehenge being taken back to Rome and eventually stuck in the Vatican museum in perpetuity?

I assume you're aware that Rome is littered with artifacts taken from across the empire?

 

[Zeberdi]

I assume you're aware that Rome is littered with artifacts taken from across the empire?

What makes you think I’m not? Odd thing to say. I just was using that as a comparable example of us removing the marbles from Greece. I haven’t read any previous posts other than the one I commented on, so perhaps you are putting forward an argument for the marbles to stay based on whataboutery.

 

[clapham_gull]

Or maybe akin to Britain being invaded and subsequently occupied by the Romans and Stonehenge being taken back to Rome and stuck in the Vatican museum in perpetuity?

To make people think, it's more like Hitler winning the war and occupying the UK for a few decades. A random American archaeologist starts dicking around at Stonehenge and gets permission from the local administration to buy half of it.

They end up outside a casino in Las Vegas.

Years later after independence, the PM on a visit to the President makes a comment to the press about the return of the stones. The President cancels the meeting with the PM because of his "irritation".

That's how we look on the world stage. It's an embarrassment.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

What makes you think I’m not? I was using Stonehenge as an example of what the Romans did across the Empire.

I didn't think that. But I also don't think most people would interpret "it's like how Rome is littered with ancient Egyptian obelisks" as an argument for returning the Elgin Marbles.

 

[clapham_gull]

I'm sure I've read that if you take the cost of defence out (which is clearly disproportionatley inflated) the Falklands is as economically viable as any other part of Britain, if not moreso. And they'd probably do a lot better if their nearest neighbour weren't a basketcase which occasionally stops flying there or being in any way cooperative for no good reason.
In any case, if we chucked out all the parts of Britain that didn't make a net contribution to the exchequer we'd be left with the Square Mile, Canary Wharf and Aberdeen.

Then why even previous to the conflict were the Government actively looking to offload it ?

 

[Zeberdi]

I didn't think that. But I also don't think most people would interpret "it's like how Rome is littered with ancient Egyptian obelisks" as an argument for returning the Elgin Marbles.

You twisted my argument - Rome is littered with artifacts because of the invading forces of the Empire removing them from the occupied lands - we removed the Elgin Marbles when Greece was under occupation by the Ottoman Empire. History is replete with examples of invading forces plundering local artefacts and destroying monuments - not least the sacking of Constantinople by the Turks.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Then why even previous to the conflict were the Government actively looking to offload it ?

I think (and it's been a while since I was reading about this) that the economy before the war was significantly smaller and less diverse. A lot of effort went into trying to make it more sustainable afterwards.
I wouldn't base your judgement now (on any issue) on the opinion of the government in 1980.

 

[Zeberdi]

To make people think, it's more like Hitler winning the war and occupying the UK for a few decades. A random American archaeologist starts dicking around at Stonehenge and gets permission from the local administration to buy half of it.

They end up outside a casino in Las Vegas.

Years later after independence, the PM on a visit to the President makes a comment to the press about the return of the stones. The President cancels the meeting with the PM because of his "irritation".

That's how we look on the world stage. It's an embarrassment.

Yes, to be more specific- a more literal comparison

I agree it is an embarrassment

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Snack missing a trick here. Opportunity for tabloid headlines like, 'Rishi sends them back where they came from'.

Or should we send them to Rwanda to make sure they never get back to Greece…..

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Or should we send them to Rwanda to make sure they never get back to Greece…..

Rwanda don’t want to do deals with us because they’d lose some sovereignty. Oh, the irony.

 

[PeterT]

I'd give Gibraltar back.

Except Gibraltar doesn’t want to be ‘given back’. Some of the quotes from Fabian Picardo make this abundantly clear, and the Spanish have tried everything from a military, diplomatic and now even sporting stance to isolate Gibraltar to force this but all it’s done is entrench the current positions even more.

Gibraltar has actually been British for a lot longer than it was ever Spanish, incidentally!

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Except Gibraltar doesn’t want to be ‘given back’. Some of the quotes from Fabian Picardo make this abundantly clear, and the Spanish have tried everything from a military, diplomatic and now even sporting stance to isolate Gibraltar to force this but all it’s done is entrench the current positions even more.

Gibraltar has actually been British for a lot longer than it was ever Spanish, incidentally!

Maybe we should hand Gibraltar over to Morocco just to annoy them.

 

[Zeberdi]

To make people think, it's more like Hitler winning the war and occupying the UK for a few decades. A random American archaeologist starts dicking around at Stonehenge and gets permission from the local administration to buy half of it.

Lord Elgin wasn’t a random archaeologist but Britain’s Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire so there was collusion with the Occupiers of Greece at the highest level right from the outset - If Greece had been an independent country by then, we never would have had ‘permission ‘ to remove them - that fact alone should render any subsequent claim that Elgin had ‘permission’ invalid surely.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

I hear the argument and the Greek claim to the marbles but possession is nine tenths of the law , and at the time the Greeks weren’t taking care of them . It is all the result of Empire and Britain raided the world for stuff.
I know I have spent many happy times in the British Museum looking at them and stuff from all over the Middle East . I would not like the next generation to be deprived of that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I hear the argument and the Greek claim to the marbles but possession is nine tenths of the law , and at the time the Greeks weren’t taking care of them . It is all the result of Empire and Britain raided the world for stuff.
I know I have spent many happy times in the British Museum looking at them and stuff from all over the Middle East . I would not like the next generation to be deprived of that.

I’ve seen them and never set foot in the British Museum. The remaining carvings in the frieze are still on the Parthenon, not having been hacked away by the equivalent of grave robbers.
The next generation can easily fly, or drive to Athens, via ferry, to see them as they should be seen.
The Greeks were occupied by the Ottoman Empire at the time of the theft, so weren’t in a situation to ‘take care of them‘.

 

[attila]

‘For three points you can have them back…’
Seriously, give them back anyway