[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Thunder Bolt]

How would you explain Corbyn's rhetoric about Jews being the scum of the earth? You wouldn't need to, because he didn't say it.

What Braverman said was that just being a woman, or being gay, wasn't enough to justify an asylum claim. You had to be individually persecuted. As you no doubt know, the UN Refugee Convention grants refugee status to members of persecuted groups. It isn't reasonable under that convention to declare women or all homosexuals (or, for that matter, all adulterers and female fornicators!) in all Muslim countries a "group", even though they do (as a rule) have tougher living conditions than we do.

Classic whataboutery there. I am not a Corbyn supporter and think he was the wrong choice for Labour. However, I did find this.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn-publishes-emotional-apology-to-jewish-community-over-labour-antisemitism-1.462997

The United Nations has condemned Suella Braverman for her speech.
As for her figure of 780million refugees, that is just plain lying, as a previous post I have said.

Asylum claims are all individual claims so if someone is trying to claim they are being persecuted, and they aren't, they will be deported. And they are deported. She cannot just state that women aren't being persecuted nor are gay people.
It may interest you to know, that once claims are processed, over 80% are granted. That's a big percentage of those coming here.

 

[nicko31]

Important to remember Braverman was sacked over a serious security breach. Like Patel before her she should be nowhere near office

 

[chickens]

Nothing's wrong with it. The difficulty with multiculturalism isn't that it gives people the right to live their lives as they choose, because liberal democracy does that too. It's that it separates the races rather than integrates them. You seem to think that the opposite of multiculturalism is persecution; it isn't.

Multiculturalism | Definition, Impact, Challenges, & Facts

Multiculturalism, the view that cultures, races, and ethnicities, particularly those of minority groups, deserve acknowledgment of their differences within a dominant political culture. It is both a response to the fact of cultural pluralism and a way of compensating cultural groups for past...

www.britannica.com

It doesn’t enforce separation, it offers each individual the freedom to engage (or not) with other cultures within the same geographical space.

Personally, I’m bang alongside the idea of ensuring that people arriving here can learn the skills that will enable them to integrate if they choose to, but the difficulty of multiculturalism is also the beauty of it.

Forced integration isn’t multiculturalism, it is enforced cultural homogeneity. It says that you’re welcome here provided you dress like us, speak like us, and like what we like.

Multiculturalism relies on a degree of shared civil understanding. Problems occur when any group that forms part of society say “we have precedence here.” and assert dominance. Religion appears the most reliable starter of conflict, with politics coming a close second. Is multiculturalism tougher? Yes. Potentially more rewarding for all involved? Absolutely.

Too much time and effort is spent trying to divide us by what’s different, instead of celebrating what’s shared. We won’t know for generations yet what the results of multiculturalism will be.

Hopefully as a society we get better at understanding each other’s differences without feeling threatened, but there’s a very long way to go. Everyone feels threatened by the unknown, on all sides of the argument.

 

[Machiavelli]

Multiculturalism isn't about people of different backgrounds and races all mixing together, as Braverman appears to have done. Multiculturalism is about keeping different races apart. Whether it's British expats in Spain living in little English-speaking communities and never learning Spanish, or whether it's Asian immigrants in the UK living in little Urdu-speaking communities and not adapting to UK customs.

Braverman looks at places like Nelson and believes multiculturalism hasn't worked, and there is a case to answer. You may still disagree, but shouting "racist! I hate her!" isn't the right way to disagree.

People understand multiculturalism by both those definitions.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Important to remember Braverman was sacked over a serious security breach. Like Patel before her she should be nowhere near office

 

[rogersix]

How much higher is the death rate under anaesthetic for AA's rather than proper anaesthetists?

just wondered if you have found time to research this question yet?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Actually, the X spat (Twitter spat) from Fox shows interaction the conversation was planned so Wootton should be suspended too.

Dan Wootton is now also suspended.

 

[Nobby]

How much higher is the death rate under anaesthetic for AA's rather than proper anaesthetists?

are you volunteering again? or........ are you volunteering someone else again?

He’s Das Reich.

 

[Nobby]

No point engaging with him.

How do you explain her rhetoric about women not being persecuted so cannot claim asylum nor anyone who is gay?

Braverman wouldn't be able to pin point Nelson on a map if you asked her.
Yes, I have been there.

 

[rogersix]

He’s Das Reich.

is he? wow and how do you know? really?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

He’s Das Reich.

No, his punctuation is better and he can spell.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The boundaries have been moved to include Meon etc which is rural, unfortunately.

As for a leadership challenge, I reckon Penny Mordaunt is ambitious enough to try again, but she is experienced in lying.

The next Tory leadership battle will be an irrelevance. It will take them at least 5 years and multiple leaders before they find any sense of direction. Their green credentials are in tatters and they've lost the middle ground

They've also purged their party of anyone sympathetic to Europe and are regarded as unelectable by the vast majority of anyone under 45 years of age, with their hardcore support dying off by the day.

 

[nicko31]

Wootton and Fox should both be suspended imo.

I also think the police should be investigating Wootton, but that's another scenario.

Update

GB News suspends Wootton after Fox comments

Presenter joins Laurence Fox on suspension over insults against female reporter on Wootton's show.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Simster]

The next Tory leadership battle will be an irrelevance. It will take them at least 5 years and multiple leaders before they find any sense of direction. Their green credentials are in tatters and they've lost the middle ground

They've also purged their party of anyone sympathetic to Europe and are regarded as unelectable by the vast majority of anyone under 45 years of age, with their hardcore support dying off by the day.

You'd think so, but the voting system and media ownership is so stacked in their favour that they might just get back in 2030 or whatever simply because they're not Labour.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It doesn’t enforce separation, it offers each individual the freedom to engage (or not) with other cultures within the same geographical space.

Personally, I’m bang alongside the idea of ensuring that people arriving here can learn the skills that will enable them to integrate if they choose to, but the difficulty of multiculturalism is also the beauty of it.

Forced integration isn’t multiculturalism, it is enforced cultural homogeneity. It says that you’re welcome here provided you dress like us, speak like us, and like what we like.

Multiculturalism relies on a degree of shared civil understanding. Problems occur when any group that forms part of society say “we have precedence here.” and assert dominance. Religion appears the most reliable starter of conflict, with politics coming a close second. Is multiculturalism tougher? Yes. Potentially more rewarding for all involved? Absolutely.

Too much time and effort is spent trying to divide us by what’s different, instead of celebrating what’s shared. We won’t know for generations yet what the results of multiculturalism will be.

Hopefully as a society we get better at understanding each other’s differences without feeling threatened, but there’s a very long way to go. Everyone feels threatened by the unknown, on all sides of the argument.

Precisely. The basic premise is that different cultures are legitimate, and therefore should not be forcibly changed. It additionally does not allow that actions that are illegal in the UK be permitted if such actions are part of a group's culture. This means that discrimination against women and homosexuals is not legal in this country, even if it is a norm in a particular culture.

And cultures of course evolve. Working class white culture once meant meat and two veg, men-only bars, and give the missus a slap once in a while if she stepped out of line.

Multiculturalism does not mean that cultures should be kept separate. It is possible that some members of some cultures may chose to live separate lives, and this is the opposite of integration and is bad, but this is not 'multiculturalism'. It is bad primarily for those who chose that path, since they miss out.

Multiculturalism is therefore nothing more than the opposite of cultural persecution. Which is essentially mostly racism.

Oh and if people refuse to learn English then I see no reason why the taxpayer should fund interpreters. If you chose to live in this country, by all means cling on to your culture (the aspects of it that are legal) but FFS learn the language. I see no contradictions here.

 

[Pavilionaire]

You'd think so, but the voting system and media ownership is so stacked in their favour that they might just get back in 2030 or whatever simply because they're not Labour.

It will be interesting to see how these factors play out, and if Labour get an outright majority. If they don't, or if it is small, then it will be in their long-term interest to reform the electoral system. I can see the SNP and Lib Dems doing business with Labour but not the Tories, so there will always be that 50%+ of seats willing to work together. It is hard to see the Tories winning another majority in their present guise.

Either way, I can't see them getting back into power until a Labour-led government have dragged the country back into some sort of closer, workable relationship with Europe where stuff like import checks, border in the Irish Sea, migrant boats, labour / skills shortages have all been dealt with via deals / Customs Union / EFTA membership, and that lot is unlikely to get across the line in the 2024-29 parliament.

 

[JBizzle]

It will be interesting to see how these factors play out, and if Labour get an outright majority. If they don't, or if it is small, then it will be in their long-term interest to reform the electoral system. I can see the SNP and Lib Dems doing business with Labour but not the Tories, so there will always be that 50%+ of seats willing to work together. It is hard to see the Tories winning another majority in their present guise.

Either way, I can't see them getting back into power until a Labour-led government have dragged the country back into some sort of closer, workable relationship with Europe where stuff like import checks, border in the Irish Sea, migrant boats, labour / skills shortages have all been dealt with via deals / Customs Union / EFTA membership, and that lot is unlikely to get across the line in the 2024-29 parliament.

No-one will ever do business with the Tories again I feel. Lib Dems were nearly wiped out when they tried it and the SNP would only do it if a referendum was included, now we know the Tories love a referendum, but that's a big ask.

The Tories will get in again simply because people have short memories and Labour will have to make some tough calls to sort out this mess.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

Dan Wootton is now also suspended.

When people going to join the dots between these absolute horrible individuals and the government feeding off each other and realise what this country has become?

It’s embarrassing, upsetting and depressing.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

No-one will ever do business with the Tories again I feel. Lib Dems were nearly wiped out when they tried it and the SNP would only do it if a referendum was included, now we know the Tories love a referendum, but that's a big ask.

The Tories will get in again simply because people have short memories and Labour will have to make some tough calls to sort out this mess.

I don’t know if they will and I despair if they do. It would take more than one term to ‘fix’ the country it is that far in the sewer. A lab/Lib dem/snp/green pact to form a strong coalition government would seem to make sense.

The tories will obviously go further right as they did in opposition to Blair until they realised it wasn’t working and came up with Cameron.

I personally couldn’t bring myself to vote tactically for the Lib Dems though for 3 reasons: 1) David Bellotti 2) Norman Baker 3) For propping up the aforementioned Cameron which led us into this crap show in the first place.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No-one will ever do business with the Tories again I feel. Lib Dems were nearly wiped out when they tried it and the SNP would only do it if a referendum was included, now we know the Tories love a referendum, but that's a big ask.

The Tories will get in again simply because people have short memories and Labour will have to make some tough calls to sort out this mess.

Unfortunately, in the last 13 years so much damage has been done by legislation, a lot of which hasn’t even been report by client journalists, Labour will need more than 5 years to sort it out.
Imo, the best thing Labour could do, is bring in PR, so no party ever gets a huge majority again. Then they can start to get us onto an even keel. I think they will reject it and we will lurch again.