[Misc] Spare

[jcdenton08]

I don’t think he’s the brightest penny in the jar

 

[lawros left foot]

Strange how differently our press are treating basically the same story in 2013, and now.

One would almost think they had an agenda.

 

[lawros left foot]

Also, for context, the whole section of his book that covers the Afghan kill claims.

 

[Triggaaar]

Strange how differently our press are treating basically the same story in 2013, and now.

One would almost think they had an agenda.

The press are scum. Although what I've seen of Harry's netflix show was awful, it did show how the daily mail showed photos of Kate holding her baby bump and praised her as a caring expectant mother, and then showed the same sort of images of Meghan and ran the headline 'Is it pride, vanity, acting - or a new age bonding technique?'

But this isn't about the press. I hadn't looked at their spin before coming to the conclusion that stating how many Afghanistanis he'd killed was not wise. And what's really turned me against them is his own Netflix show, which they are controlling themselves.

 

[drew]

What on earth are you talking about? I was replying to a post about pilots in WW2 claiming kills as a matter of course. That means pilots claiming how many planes they shot down. What has that got to do with what they thought about the crew of those aircraft or the people who died from bombs dropped by bombers? The crew of bombers did not claim the people who died from bombing raids as 'kills'. So what are you talking about?

You really have to ask? Comments by some were suggesting H was just bragging about his kills and others like you were suggesting nobody does that. The post you replied to was a counter argument that WW2 pilots would claim 'kills'. You've then decided to go all pedant about what constitutes an ace (irrelevant) and that they were somehow killing 'planes' not people.

When you're in a pub talking to a soldier you don't know very well, I think it is an inappropriate question. That doesn't mean the soldier has no outlet for their feelings, as no doubt they have people in their lives who are closer to them than some stranger in a pub.

I agree that you wouldn't ask a stranger in a pub. You said you've known numerous ex serviceman but you've decided it's an unwritten rule not to ask. How do you know that and how do you know it applies to every ex serviceman. Not every ex serviceman has killed an enemy. Probably not every ex serviceman who served in Iraq or Afghanistan actually killed someone. Some of those that did might be comfortable with it but there may well be others that aren't. But because it's a taboo subject you'll never know.

This suggests there may be an issue.

Veteran suicide figures to be recorded for the first time

A new method for recording veteran suicides in England and Wales has been announced today by the government.

www.gov.uk

But then all the above is really irrelevant because it's clear from that last line of your post about 'aces' that you, along with others and some of the media, have already decided your opinion on Harry and Meghan, two people I'm guessing you've never met.

 

[Triggaaar]

You really have to ask? Comments by some were suggesting H was just bragging about his kills and others like you were suggesting nobody does that. The post you replied to was a counter argument that WW2 pilots would claim 'kills'. You've then decided to go all pedant about what constitutes an ace (irrelevant) and that they were somehow killing 'planes' not people.

'Somehow killing planes not people' - that is exactly what WW2 pilots refer to when they talk about their kills. If they shoot down a single-seat fighter, and see the pilot parachute towards the ground, that counts as a kill. So it's not bragging about killing a person, it's their record of shooting down aircraft.

That is not comparable to what Harry has done.

I agree that you wouldn't ask a stranger in a pub. You said you've known numerous ex serviceman but you've decided it's an unwritten rule not to ask. How do you know that and how do you know it applies to every ex serviceman. Not every ex serviceman has killed an enemy. Probably not every ex serviceman who served in Iraq or Afghanistan actually killed someone. Some of those that did might be comfortable with it but there may well be others that aren't. But because it's a taboo subject you'll never know.

Yes I decided not to ask, knowing that if it was something they wanted to talk to me about, they could. It was in a pub when someone asked one of my friends about killing other soldiers, and I said it wasn't really a question you ask (even if if this person was a good friend of the ex-soldier [they weren't] you wouldn't ask in a pub in front of others, like it's a cool story rather than a healthy discussion.

But then all the above is really irrelevant because it's clear from that last line of your post about 'aces' that you, along with others and some of the media, have already decided your opinion on Harry and Meghan, two people I'm guessing you've never met.

Re my comment about 'aces' - I'm simply explaining what 'kills' mean to a WW2 fighter pilot, which you don't seem to understand. If you have no opinion about anyone in the world that you've not met, that's quite unusual. I have watched some of Harry and Meghan's own TV documentary, which they have controlled, and I have formed opinions about them.

 

[drew]

Re my comment about 'aces' - I'm simply explaining what 'kills' mean to a WW2 fighter pilot, which you don't seem to understand. If you have no opinion about anyone in the world that you've not met, that's quite unusual. I have watched some of Harry and Meghan's own TV documentary, which they have controlled, and I have formed opinions about them.

Ridiculous, it's irrelevant what an ace is and you know it. Whether a pilot has one kill or 20 it makes no difference. One poster mentioned 'aces' but that wasn't, in my opinion, the point he was making. He was pointing out that there are some that claim kills.

Of course I form opinions about people I've never met. The description you have given Harry is what I would reserve for people like Huntley, Sutcliffe or Bishop.

 

[Triggaaar]

Ridiculous, it's irrelevant what an ace is and you know it. Whether a pilot has one kill or 20 it makes no difference.

You're being obtuse. Of course it makes no difference whether it's 1 or 20, it's not about whether someone is an ace or not. The point is that what they mean by 'kill' is aircraft destroyed, not humans killed.

Harry was talking about killing humans, while WW2 pilots talking about kills were talking about aircraft. It's a huge difference.

Of course I form opinions about people I've never met. The description you have given Harry is what I would reserve for people like Huntley, Sutcliffe or Bishop.

Well you've simply misinterpreted my comments about them. I'd like them to get lost and stop whining in the media. I do not think they're evil murderers.

 

[drew]

You're being obtuse. Of course it makes no difference whether it's 1 or 20, it's not about whether someone is an ace or not. The point is that what they mean by 'kill' is aircraft destroyed, not humans killed.

Harry was talking about killing humans, while WW2 pilots talking about kills were talking about aircraft. It's a huge difference.


Well you've simply misinterpreted my comments about them. I'd like them to get lost and stop whining in the media. I do not think they're evil murderers.

You're being a pedant again. That or you and I are wired differently. If I had shot down a plane I would be fully aware that it is highly likely that I've killed someone, you on the other hand think you've just killed a bit of metal.

 

[Zeberdi]

….If I had shot down a plane I would be fully aware that it is highly likely that I've killed someone, you on the other hand think you've just killed a bit of metal.

I know I shouldn’t but

 

[Icy Gull]

Two of NSC’s biggest pedants going toe to toe, what’s not to like?

 

[birthofanorange]

As entertaining as all this has been, I am definitely team @Triggaaar on this one. The difference between the two claims has been clearly explained - a WW2 pilot claimed a single 'kill' if he shot down a plane, irrespective of how many occupants there were, or, whether some (or all) survived or not.
Harry's claim is purely about how many actual people he killed.

 

[Happy Exile]

Harry has clearly suffered greatly, and while I might not necessarily agree with the way he is going about things I can't help but empathise too.

Having read that passage about the 25 Taliban, and some other excerpts and seen some of his interviews it seems he's basically in thrall to the idea of radical accountability / radical honesty. That's one way of dealing with your issues and trying to get hold of the threads in your life that are causing you problems - fully take them on board, face into them, and deal with them without flinching. Ideally those you are facing into this with will meet you in the middle, something he clearly feels William and other Royals haven't done. It's very un-English to do so but some other cultures do it without making a big deal of it just fine.

Above all I think this book is what happens when someone goes their entire life not feeling heard and not feeling like they have an identity beyond being in service to a family that sees them as relatively unimportant, unable to do much right, that rejected that person's mother. and then rejected their wife. And then they are given a platform that exceeds their good judgement but enables them to finally feel heard. I'm more sympathetic towards him than critical of him I think.

 

[Triggaaar]

You're being a pedant again. That or you and I are wired differently. If I had shot down a plane I would be fully aware that it is highly likely that I've killed someone, you on the other hand think you've just killed a bit of metal.

No, you're misunderstanding the discussion. Pilots are of course aware that they can kill people. They are not thinking 'oh, it doesn't matter, it's only metal.' But lawro said:

"Just a thought on the criticism Harry has got from Army brass about his claims to have killed 25 Taliban, and them saying no Serviceman would openly talk about their personal tallies.

The RAF pilots of WW2 claimed kills as a matter of course, and were judged on whether they became’Aces’ on such numbers."

That is specifically about the number of 'kills' a pilot claimed, which is specifically about metal, not human life.

 

[rogersix]

only one party is telling the truth, and he is the bad man.

the public's perception is quite disturbing, i spose you see what you wish

 

[drew]

Harry has clearly suffered greatly, and while I might not necessarily agree with the way he is going about things I can't help but empathise too.

Having read that passage about the 25 Taliban, and some other excerpts and seen some of his interviews it seems he's basically in thrall to the idea of radical accountability / radical honesty. That's one way of dealing with your issues and trying to get hold of the threads in your life that are causing you problems - fully take them on board, face into them, and deal with them without flinching. Ideally those you are facing into this with will meet you in the middle, something he clearly feels William and other Royals haven't done. It's very un-English to do so but some other cultures do it without making a big deal of it just fine.

Above all I think this book is what happens when someone goes their entire life not feeling heard and not feeling like they have an identity beyond being in service to a family that sees them as relatively unimportant, unable to do much right, that rejected that person's mother. and then rejected their wife. And then they are given a platform that exceeds their good judgement but enables them to finally feel heard. I'm more sympathetic towards him than critical of him I think.

Good post.

 

[Triggaaar]

only one party is telling the truth, and he is the bad man.

What truth is he telling? He's saying that someone said something that might have had racist intentions, but he won't say who, so we have to tar the entire family as racists. He's saying his brother pushed him over (or something like that). I imagine that's true although I have no proof - but so what? Has no one here ever had a bit of a barny with their brother? And if so, does that need to be shared with the media?

The truths I also saw them share in the documentary included how they're leading the world in the fight against racism, and the only reason the Royal family has been against them has been to protect the racism that we in Britain love so much.

I always quite liked Harry and I had nothing against Meghan, but every time they reveal another story I go off them more. Like when they were on Oprah. And like Diana's interview (which I realise she was tricked into giving) and Prince Andrew's interview to prove his innocence. None of them do themselves any favours by pretending to be hard done by in interviews.

 

[rogersix]

What truth is he telling? He's saying that someone said something that might have had racist intentions, but he won't say who, so we have to tar the entire family as racists. He's saying his brother pushed him over (or something like that). I imagine that's true although I have no proof - but so what? Has no one here ever had a bit of a barny with their brother? And if so, does that need to be shared with the media?

The truths I also saw them share in the documentary included how they're leading the world in the fight against racism, and the only reason the Royal family has been against them has been to protect the racism that we in Britain love so much.

I always quite liked Harry and I had nothing against Meghan, but every time they reveal another story I go off them more. Like when they were on Oprah. And like Diana's interview (which I realise she was tricked into giving) and Prince Andrew's interview to prove his innocence. None of them do themselves any favours by pretending to be hard done by in interviews.

he's up against some absolute wrong'uns alright; the firm, the establishment, and the right wing press...

the only weapon he's got is the truth, all power to him, i say

 

[Half Time Pies]

What truth is he telling? He's saying that someone said something that might have had racist intentions, but he won't say who, so we have to tar the entire family as racists. He's saying his brother pushed him over (or something like that). I imagine that's true although I have no proof - but so what? Has no one here ever had a bit of a barny with their brother? And if so, does that need to be shared with the media?

The truths I also saw them share in the documentary included how they're leading the world in the fight against racism, and the only reason the Royal family has been against them has been to protect the racism that we in Britain love so much.

I always quite liked Harry and I had nothing against Meghan, but every time they reveal another story I go off them more. Like when they were on Oprah. And like Diana's interview (which I realise she was tricked into giving) and Prince Andrew's interview to prove his innocence. None of them do themselves any favours by pretending to be hard done by in interviews.

I feel some sympathy with Megan and Harry because of my own relationship...I am from a white British family, born and bred in Sussex with very little exposure as I grew up to other races and cultures. However my Wife is of multiracial background and had a tough time from some members of my family when we got together who didn't particularly like it and as a result didn't treat her that well. A member of my family made similar comments to what Harry has reported were made about the potential colour of my unborn sons skin and asked me how would I feel about it.

When I look at the Royal Family, which lets face is an outdated throwback to the days of inherited power and colonialism, is anyone really surprised that there would be outdated views and an element of racism within that institution??

Its actually a more widespread issue than a lot of people realise. We live in Hove which in terms of much of the rest of the UK is pretty open minded yet my 11 year old son told me recently that other pupils at school have repeatedly asked him 'where are you 'really' from?'. I watched him directly experience racism as a 9 year old on the football field because of the colour of his skin and it makes my blood boil in the same way that it probably does for Harry. I totally understand why he would want to call it out.

 

[AmexRuislip]

This is funny