Thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians spotted at the borders

[Guinness Boy]

So, for all the perceived cultural benefits that immigrants bring, on the other side of the balance sheet is a more impoverished British working class

That's totally subjective.

and foreign nationals making up 14% of our prison population.

Agree on those numbers. It was part of the report that said immigrants had made a net beneficial contribution in recent years thst I posted earlier.

Stats from the Met indicate that they have arrested approx 334k foreign nationals in the last 5 years for crimes including murder and rape.

How many British did they arrest. Or do you only bother to look out for the stats on immigrants?

No doubt you consider that this is a price worth paying so you can enjoy some alternative music and spicy food.

No I consider it the price to pay so that we can compete in a global marketplace. The food and music is just a bonus.

None of what you said explains what additional problem Romanians in Brighton would cause that the city doesn't already have.

 

[cunning fergus]

http://chartsbin.com/view/8ns

This graph indicates the % of foreign nationals in UK prisons is one of the lowest in the EU.

Why is that of any relevance, I live in the UK. In the UK it is 14%, and evidence if it was needed that we (in the UK) have a problem with criminality amongst our immigrant population. Each prisoner costs the UK taxpayer approx. 40k pa and that's before we deal with the effect on their victims. It's not all about keeping the working class impoverished you know.

It matters not one jot what happens elsewhere in the EU or further afield that is for other electorates and their Govts to deal with.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why is that of any relevance.

Because it puts it in context you wally. It will never be 0% so seeing how it fairs with other nations is of interest. And the UK fairs very very well. And would you agree comparing the amount of foreign prisoners in UK jails with the number of Brits banged up abroad is also of interest? As Guinness has pointed out you cannot use figures in total isolation of context; it's meaningless.

 

[cunning fergus]

That's totally subjective.



Agree on those numbers. It was part of the report that said immigrants had made a net beneficial contribution in recent years thst I posted earlier.



How many British did they arrest. Or do you only bother to look out for the stats on immigrants?



No I consider it the price to pay so that we can compete in a global marketplace. The food and music is just a bonus.

None of what you said explains what additional problem Romanians in Brighton would cause that the city doesn't already have.

Why does it matter how many British were arrested.............the way I see it we have an extra 14% more criminals in prison than we should have.

Govts will always create "dossiers" to support their policies, it's nothing new. For the record I don't doubt there are many benefits, however the effects of immigration is not a single track road up to sunlit uplands with no negatives.

I doubt that report has offset the benefits of immigration against, say off the top of my head, the hundreds of rapes that have been committed in the UK by foreign nationals.............I could be wrong though.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why does it matter how many British were arrested

The penny isn't going to drop with you is it?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Govts will always create "dossiers" to support their policies, it's nothing new.

I doubt that report has offset the benefits of immigration against, say off the top of my head, the hundreds of rapes that have been committed in the UK by foreign nationals.............I could be wrong though.

Funny because when they are too positive towards immigration the Cabinet Minister responsible has a habit of blocking or delaying them...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/12/10/immigration-report-delayed-too-positive_n_4417247.html

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

the way I see it we have an extra 14% more criminals in prison than we should have.

How do you propose the UK gets it down to your acceptable 0% then? There is the "prevention" option of not allowing a single foreigner into the UK, whether they be a tourist, visitor or worker, in case they commit a crime; clearly not workable. Or the "cure" which is to ship every foreign criminal back to their country of origin; again not workable in case the country of origin doesn't lock them up for the duration of the sentence ie in effect they get off once outside the UK. How do you propose achieving your 0%? Or, do you accept there will always be foreign criminals in UK jails and keep it at an "acceptable" level which compared to the rest of the EU seems to be the case?

And please let me know how many Brits are hanging around in non-UK jails.

Please enlighten me.

 

[cunning fergus]

Because it puts it in context you wally. It will never be 0% so seeing how it fairs with other nations is of interest. And the UK fairs very very well. And would you agree comparing the amount of foreign prisoners in UK jails with the number of Brits banged up abroad is also of interest? As Guinness has pointed out you cannot use figures in total isolation of context; it's meaningless.

Comparisons with other countries data may be interesting but it is of little relevance to the UK electorate. I can see how some people could use other countries data as a distraction from the reality on the ground in the UK, but it really does means nothing.

What would be far more relevant to providing context in this matter is to compare the UK's prison population year on year since say 1950 and then check what the percentage of foreign nationals has been historically; that way we can genuinely determine whether or not we are fairing well.........as you would say.

Do you think we will see a constant trend of around 14% or do you think we will see an ever rising trend in the last 30 years?

 

[cunning fergus]

Funny because when they are too positive towards immigration the Cabinet Minister responsible has a habit of blocking or delaying them...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/12/10/immigration-report-delayed-too-positive_n_4417247.html

"according to reports"

May be it was but maybe it wasn't".............maybe the press could find an unnamed source to confirm.

 

[cunning fergus]

How do you propose the UK gets it down to your acceptable 0% then? There is the "prevention" option of not allowing a single foreigner into the UK, whether they be a tourist, visitor or worker, in case they commit a crime; clearly not workable. Or the "cure" which is to ship every foreign criminal back to their country of origin; again not workable in case the country of origin doesn't lock them up for the duration of the sentence ie in effect they get off once outside the UK. How do you propose achieving your 0%? Or, do you accept there will always be foreign criminals in UK jails and keep it at an "acceptable" level which compared to the rest of the EU seems to be the case?

And please let me know how many Brits are hanging around in non-UK jails.

Please enlighten me.

Well, Romania's percentage of foreign nationals in prison is 0.6%.............I could live with that.

That would be entirely reasonable............don't you think?

As for Brits in prison abroad why is that relevant, do you think British citizens should be subjected to crime because British people have committed offences abroad.........like some kind of perverse karma?

 

[Soulman]

Ok then, so we have our own British born feckless, lazy criminals.......why import more in. If immigration has helped this country, then let's have the decent ones.
To bang on about the bad Brits abroad is just a deflection.....we know, we have them here as stated. We worry about the people coming in....like these countries worry about the bad going out.
Our problem here, and their problem there.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As for Brits in prison abroad why is that relevant

Because if they're are more than 14k (ie 14% of 100k UK prison population) then the cost which is of a concern to you will even out ie they lock ours up and we lock theirs up.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well, Romania's percentage of foreign nationals in prison is 0.6%.............I could live with that.

That would be entirely reasonable............don't you think?

Yes, a reasonable target. But how will you achieve this?

 

[cunning fergus]

Because if they're are more than 14k (ie 14% of 100k UK prison population) then the cost which is of a concern to you will even out ie they lock ours up and we lock theirs up.

I am only worried about the UK, I don't care what happens in other countries.........there are states in the US that still have the death penalty, I could not care a jot if a British criminal is executed.

That said the US have a visa system that prevents previously convicted foreign nationals getting into the US in the first place.

So, there is one measure the Govt could implement to help decrease the current 14% and protect UK citizens in their own country.

What do you think, seems sensible to me?

 

[BadFish]

I am only worried about the UK, I don't care what happens in other countries.........there are states in the US that still have the death penalty, I could not care a jot if a British criminal is executed.

That said the US have a visa system that prevents previously convicted foreign nationals getting into the US in the first place.

So, there is one measure the Govt could implement to help decrease the current 14% and protect UK citizens in their own country.

What do you think, seems sensible to me?

Doing this would involve leaving the EU though wouldn't it?

 

[User removed 4]

So, for all the perceived cultural benefits that immigrants bring, on the other side of the balance sheet is a more impoverished British working class and foreign nationals making up 14% of our prison population.

Stats from the Met indicate that they have arrested approx 334k foreign nationals in the last 5 years for crimes including murder and rape.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/27/labour-stop-worrying-about-immigration

http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2013/feb_2013/2013010000160.pdf

No doubt you consider that this is a price worth paying so you can enjoy some alternative music and spicy food.

absolutely spot on.

 

[MICK PATCHAM]

LETS SEE WHAT THE BBCs OWN POLITICAL EDITOR SAYS ABOUT IMMIGRATION . FOR ALL YOU QUOTING THE BBC SAYING THERES NO PROBLEM .....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...terrible-mistake-over-immigration-debate.html

 

[cunning fergus]

Doing this would involve leaving the EU though wouldn't it?

Why should it, if the UK Govt wants to implement a sensible measure to protect its citizens from criminals that should be it........who has superior authority over the UK Govt?

I note that Australia has a similar measures for visiting foreigners, would the Australian electorate accept a situation where it's own sovereign Govt cannot implement measures to protect its citizens?

We both know the answer to that question don't we.

 

[Soulman]

On Jan 1, Britain lifted restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians coming to work. Some will be eligible — quite legally — to pay taxes abroad



Romanians and Bulgarians coming to work can avoid paying taxes in Britain because of a loophole.


Instead they can pay taxes at home where basic rates are much lower.


The rules allow European workers “posted” to Britain for less than two years to pay national insurance and, in some cases, income tax in their own country.


Almost 100,000 EU immigrants already in Britain are taking advantage of the regulations.


The head of Romania’s biggest recruitment agency, which has just set up an office in London, said yesterday it was perfectly legitimate for workers coming to Britain to pay tax in their own country.


“If you are not becoming a tax resident because you are a temporary worker you can pay the tax in your country of origin,” said Andreas Cser, president of Tjobs Recruit. “If you don’t become resident in Britain then you can end up paying taxes in Romania and Bulgaria.” His company was yesterday advertising 4,500 jobs for Romanians in Britain including taxi drivers, care assistants, doctors and beauticians.

On Jan 1, Britain lifted restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians coming to work. Some will be eligible — quite legally — to pay taxes abroad. EU migrants working in Britain but paying tax abroad would be entitled to some free health care, housing benefit and child benefit.
Bulgaria charges a flat rate of tax of just 10 per cent on earnings while Romania levies just 16 per cent, compared with a basic UK rate of tax of 32 per cent, comprised of 20 per cent income tax and National Insurance contributions at 12 per cent.
Tjobs advertises the service on its website, offering to fill out the correct forms to comply with UK and EU rules.
Under EU rules, workers may be posted abroad for up to two years — and potentially longer — allowing them to pay the equivalent of national insurance in their home state. “Posted” workers’ contracts must respect the labour law of the host country, but social security charges remain those of the home state.
Separate UK tax treaties can also allow workers to continue to pay income tax in their home country.

 

[BadFish]

Why should it, if the UK Govt wants to implement a sensible measure to protect its citizens from criminals that should be it........who has superior authority over the UK Govt?

I note that Australia has a similar measures for visiting foreigners, would the Australian electorate accept a situation where it's own sovereign Govt cannot implement measures to protect its citizens?

We both know the answer to that question don't we.

I thought that being part of the EU meant that you had to accept looser border controls which allowed freer movement of people across the EU.

The free movement of persons is a fundamental right guaranteed to European Union (EU) citizens by the Treaties. It is realised through the area of freedom, security and justice without internal borders. Lifting internal borders requires strengthened management of the Union’s external borders as well as regulated entry and residence of non-EU nationals, including through a common asylum and immigration policy.
The concept of free movement of persons came about with the signing of the Schengen Agreement in 1985 and the subsequent Schengen Convention in 1990, which initiated the abolition of border controls between participating countries. Being part of the EU legal and institutional framework, Schengen cooperation has gradually been extended to include most EU Member States as well as some non-EU countries.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summar...nt_of_persons_asylum_immigration/index_en.htm

So it would appear that if the UK wants to continue to be part of the EU then it must abide by it's rules.

Not sure what Australia has to do with this discussion, especially as you earlier stated that you only care about what goes on in the UK. But I suppose that if a Southern Asian Union was formed and Australia wanted to be part of it then it would have to abide by it's rules.