The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[pastafarian]

it looks fairly inevitable from my tory goggles

but isnt it the best option for real labour party supporters (with real labour/socialist values) and the tory lite version of the party( pro bankers and capitalism) to split and go their separate ways.
The labour electorate would have a clear choice. It would also make champagne socialists like Herr T who are full of crap less irritating.

 

[pastafarian]

John Harris did a couple of videos for the Guardian pre Brexit having travelled around the country and he essentially called the result out based on those travels.

Worth watching particularly when he was in Stoke with local working class kippers campaigning next to Tristram Hunt and his supporters. Watching that the only surprise was that Stoke only voted 70% out. Even the other Stoke MP that was local knew the game was up and she was in factories where staff relied on exporting to the EU.

They just didn't realise how angry the people were..........they knew trying to argue positively for what the EU stood for were the very things the people were pissed off with, so debate was pointless.

It was the first time I though "leave" we're in with a squeak.

if you have a spare 30 mins,listen to why the people of Wakefield voted to leave.
They made decisions on different issues that are echoed across the country.

And not a racist xenophobe amongst them.
Just real people with real concerns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07k08xd

 

[cunning fergus]

You think you have it all worked out but it is so much more complex than you present. The working classes deserted Labour through the 70's and 80's. In 1966 69% of manual workers voted Labour, but by '87 that was 45%. From 1945 to 1960 60% of skilled manual workers voted Labour only for that vote to be shredded to 34% by the mid 80's. The biggest return to Labour of the working class vote since the '60's was 1997 when they returned in their droves, but it was brief, however it wasn't 1997 or Blair that lost their vote - that had been going in the previous decades.

New Labour was a response to the fact Labour had already been deserted, a slow decline of its vote over the previous 25 years, and a desperation at ending 18 years of Tory rule. To say the abandonment of Labour was from 1997 is simply just ignoring history.

It left Labour sustained by your loathsome middle classes, but there is no quick fix for getting the working classes back. They are not just going to look at a Jeremy Corbyn, or a sudden programme of re-nationalisation and return in their droves. You seem to think the referendum vote by the working classes was to enable this social political revolution, a bringing down of capitalism - again, no evidence that is the case. Not every working class person is sat waiting for the next great socialist manifesto to appear.

Labour has been confused, conflicted for 50 years. As I've said numerous times, this comes of the electorate continually returning Tory governments. Do they align themselves more to the centre or stick with their core belief in socialism. You are putting huge stead in the working classes buying into the that (which as said they didn't do through the '80s), and if they are to do that, Labour is going to need someone more convincing than Corbyn. They are going to need a Alexis Tsipras type figure, and that is not going to be easy to find.

That's as maybe but Labour are not going to win elections without the working class and by just appealing to the urban bougouis either. Brexit proves that.

If any constituency was a bell weather for how resolute the working class was look at the result from Jo Cox's Bately and aspen which voted 55% out despite her brutal politically motivated murder.

I am not arguing for the collectivisation of farms or shutting down the free press, however Labour is bereft of any political ideology beyond doing and saying what it thinks it needs to in order to get back into power.

Their brand is damaged because they have abandoned their core to embrace neo liberalism because it what they think the people want.

They don't, it's been rejected.........I can tell you are struggling with that but you have been largely content with how life has been in the last 20 years.

Brexit can be positive, so can Labour's future if they fix on sound socialist principles, and controlling the labour market for the working class should be front and centre. This political ground will become mainstream, if Labour continue to whine on about freedom of movement and re-joining the EU they will cease to exist as a viable political party for the working class because that is what Goldman Sachs wants.

 

[cunning fergus]

if you have a spare 30 mins,listen to why the people of Wakefield voted to leave.
They made decisions on different issues that are echoed across the country.

And not a racist xenophobe amongst them.
Just real people with real concerns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07k08xd

I've seen it........it's why the PLP and their support are so delusional.

They are like members of a cult thats found its very raison d'être was false.

Anger about loss always come before acceptance when bereaved and as the recent rise in poisonous hate crime (within the Labour Party) proves they have still some way to go.

Bon voyage........

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I will sneer at anyone who sets themselves up as having Labour Party values, yet actually supports free market capitalism.

I have taken this line with the labour supporting Tories on here for years, yourself included I suspect.

If you want to p!ss your pants because I treat Saint Eddie the same way that's your problem not mine. Izzard is just another political labour celebrity motormouth that has absolutely no political bottom. He is no different from those vacuous capitalist shills in the PLP like Tristram Hunt, Luciana Berger, Harriet Harman, Peter Mandelson, Shaun Woodward and all the other minions who have taken a great big shit on the working class for years.

Shake your head all you like the Labour Party is clearing out the dead wood, time for you to toddle off to the Tories where you belong.

Wow. Class war. That attitude will make labour unelectable for ever. No compromise with the electrorate. I would rather have a labour lite government than a tory one. You clearly would rather have a tory government than have anyone who is not proper working class in the labour party. I genuinely dispair. And what would you do with me, a middle class person? Melt me down for glue?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Wow. Class war. That attitude will make labour unelectable for ever. No compromise with the electrorate. I would rather have a labour lite government than a tory one. You clearly would rather have a tory government than have anyone who is not proper working class in the labour party. I genuinely dispair. And what would you do with me, a middle class person? Melt me down for glue?

Class war is a reality - The Tories (and before them the Blairites) have been dumping on working class people and middle earners while protecting the interests of the rich elites.

I don't know hat the actual numbers are in Britain but I do know what they are in Ireland (and the percentages are unlikely to be that different). In Ireland our tory government have since 2008 progressively cut more than €40billion in public expenditure. We have a rapidly developing housing crisis with more than 1000 families being made homeless every month - some families have now been living in hotel rooms for more than a year. The disabled, lone parents, and a variety of other socially deprived groups have seen significant cuts to their incomes and support services. Massive cuts have been imposed in health and education and nearly 500,000 people have been forced to emigrate to find work.

At the same time the richest 300 people in Ireland have seen their wealth increase from €50billion to €84billion. One company - Google - on their own owe the Irish government in the region of €18billion in unpaid taxes and the Irish tory government not alone refuse to collect this tax - they are actually going to court to defend Google's failure to pay the tax. There are many other companies fiddling their books to avoid paying tax - the top 10 global companies in Ireland pay less than 0.5% tax.

Similar developers have taken place in other countries - the most stark in Greece where the latest troika austerity programme has seen pensions being cut by 40% with entire families now being forced to survive on as little as €240 a month.

You say that you would prefer to have a labour government than a Tory government - but what is the point in having a labour government if all that labour government is going to do is implement the same Tory policies.

The class war is already underway - declared by the Tories and the Blairites with the support of their rich financial backers - yet you also suggest that by labour acknowledging and engaging in defending working class people and middle income earners would make the LP unelectable. I would contend that by not engaging with the clas war guarantees that the LP - a real LP - will never be elected. Blair and the Blairites only won because the Tories became so mired in corruption that the Monster Raving Looneys could have defeated them. Blair stayed in power not because New Labour was electable but because Blair rode the economic bubble for two elections before the entire edifice came crashing down.

As for what I would do to a middle class person like you - I would try and explain to you that the Tory class war is not just a class war against the working class, it is also a class war against he middle layers in society. Globalisation has created a crisis for the middle class which is rapidly shrinking as large sections of middle income earners have seen their incomes slashed and driven into the working class. The same is happening with small shop keepers and independent traders who are being engulfed by large conglomerates. People who consider themselves middle class should be backing Corbyn. The policies of the Tories do not protect the interests of the 99% - they protect the rule of the 1%.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Class war is a reality - The Tories (and before them the Blairites) have been dumping on working class people and middle earners while protecting the interests of the rich elites.

I don't know hat the actual numbers are in Britain but I do know what they are in Ireland (and the percentages are unlikely to be that different). In Ireland our tory government have since 2008 progressively cut more than €40billion in public expenditure. We have a rapidly developing housing crisis with more than 1000 families being made homeless every month - some families have now been living in hotel rooms for more than a year. The disabled, lone parents, and a variety of other socially deprived groups have seen significant cuts to their incomes and support services. Massive cuts have been imposed in health and education and nearly 500,000 people have been forced to emigrate to find work.

At the same time the richest 300 people in Ireland have seen their wealth increase from €50billion to €84billion. One company - Google - on their own owe the Irish government in the region of €18billion in unpaid taxes and the Irish tory government not alone refuse to collect this tax - they are actually going to court to defend Google's failure to pay the tax. There are many other companies fiddling their books to avoid paying tax - the top 10 global companies in Ireland pay less than 0.5% tax.

Similar developers have taken place in other countries - the most stark in Greece where the latest troika austerity programme has seen pensions being cut by 40% with entire families now being forced to survive on as little as €240 a month.

You say that you would prefer to have a labour government than a Tory government - but what is the point in having a labour government if all that labour government is going to do is implement the same Tory policies.

The class war is already underway - declared by the Tories and the Blairites with the support of their rich financial backers - yet you also suggest that by labour acknowledging and engaging in defending working class people and middle income earners would make the LP unelectable. I would contend that by not engaging with the clas war guarantees that the LP - a real LP - will never be elected. Blair and the Blairites only won because the Tories became so mired in corruption that the Monster Raving Looneys could have defeated them. Blair stayed in power not because New Labour was electable but because Blair rode the economic bubble for two elections before the entire edifice came crashing down.

As for what I would do to a middle class person like you - I would try and explain to you that the Tory class war is not just a class war against the working class, it is also a class war against he middle layers in society. Globalisation has created a crisis for the middle class which is rapidly shrinking as large sections of middle income earners have seen their incomes slashed and driven into the working class. The same is happening with small shop keepers and independent traders who are being engulfed by large conglomerates. People who consider themselves middle class should be backing Corbyn. The policies of the Tories do not protect the interests of the 99% - they protect the rule of the 1%.

Is class war a reality or just an outdated concept perpetuated by some on the left to justify their beliefs/existance?

Inequality is obviously an ongoing problem but it could be argued capitalism/globalisation has and is doing more to lift people out of poverty than any Utopian dream of the perfect Socialist/communist centrally planned redistribution system.

http://time.com/4198164/these-5-facts-explain-the-unstable-global-middle-class/

The size of the “global middle class” will increase from 1.8 billion in 2009 to 3.2 billion by 2020 and 4.9 billion by 2030. - See more at:

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fu...erging_middle_class.html#sthash.yyrMpmgv.dpuf

... seven in 10 Britons now viewing themselves as middle class, compared with a quarter a generation ago.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...0-of-us-belong-to-middle-britain-2247052.html

https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...ore-middle-class-than-working-class-2000-data

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22956470

Which may be why so many of your arguments and beliefs don't resonate with the electorate. Time to move on comrade?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

With a reference to "class war" or so called,it could be that 3 main political parties post Brexit,morph into five?

100 years ago it was, working middle and gentry,think the times we live in have allowed the possibility for more classes and as such a party to represent each is required..

 

[Ernest]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

 

[JC Footy Genius]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

Last poll (which normally underestimate Tory support) I have seen put the Tories 8% clear of Labour despite all their problems with UKIP polling at 15% probably including many ex Labour voters.

The evidence of what Corbyn has achieved is clear .. perpetual Tory government.

 

[drew]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

Cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

it looks fairly inevitable from my tory goggles

but isnt it the best option for real labour party supporters (with real labour/socialist values) and the tory lite version of the party( pro bankers and capitalism) to split and go their separate ways.
The labour electorate would have a clear choice. It would also make champagne socialists like Herr T who are full of crap less irritating.

When I suggested that the Labour Party might split into two, with what you describe as the 'Tory lite' half (essentially most of the PLP) perhaps open to an accommodation with the pro-Remain 'one nation' wing of the Conservative Party your only reaction was to laugh. I won't laugh at what you say here, but I will agree with it.

 

[beorhthelm]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

sorry to break it to you chap, none of them have been attributable to Corbyn. those election results were in safe seats at least one of which i recal did want him to visit,. its been threat of Tory rebelian that reversed the welfare and diability cuts, it was Gove that pushed to cancel the Saudi deal, Corbyn cried about recalling parliament to deal with the steel sell off which months later still hasnt actually happened. anti-austerity and part nationalisation have never been off the agenda. so basically you can claim Corbyn had brought a union back to the fold. well done, thanks for opposing the government so well Mr Corbyn.

 

[Hampster Gull]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

You have to be joking

 

[synavm]

In the 9 months since Corbyn was elected:
- put anti-austerity on the national agenda
- put limited nationalisation on the agenda
- reversal on Saudi prisons contract
- reversal on forced school academisation
- reversal on £4.3bn Tory welfare cuts
- forced the intervention in the steel industry
- increased vote share in Oldham by-election
- increased vote share in Tooting by-election
- held other by-election seats
- won 4 mayoral elections
- matched previous local government election results in the context of the UKIP-Brexit insurgency
- Fire Brigade Union re-affiliated to Labour after decades
- stopped disability benefit cuts
Imagine what more Corbyn could achieve without the plotters and selfish schemers disrupting the Labour Party

Saw that meme too. So misleading. I'm a massive sad act and work in Parliament, I know how poor of an opposition Labour have been under Labour. Case in point, in terms of chamber business unlike under Miliband, they are generally very late to the punch with amends, Plaid Cymru and the SNP are particularly quick and for some reason Labour are now whipped into not putting their name to any amends tabled by other parties, despite Labour often tabling exactly the same amends but separately, meaning nothing gets done.

Now specifically on this meme:

1. Yes, he brought anti-austerity to the agenda, but what has really changed? McDonnell is still committed to reducing the deficit (somehow) but they don't believe in arbitrary set dates to balance the books. So, I guess it's a half truth, but I refer to the fact they're not really actively providing opposition in the chamber.

2. Put nationalisation on the agenda. Yup. Outside of trains, though, is there really an appetite for it? What about mutualisation? Social enterprise? Profit sharing schemes. I believe that is the next logical step in achieving social mobility. The Lib Dems are going to be pushing this hard in 2020.

3. Reversal of Saidi prisons contract. This one is a fair comment. Corbyn raised this at conference.

4. Reversal on academies was achieved by disgruntled back bench Tories from rural constituencies- your Nicholas Soames' of the world. Cameron/Morgan couldn't give a toss what Labour had to say on this.

5. Any Government would have to intervene on what was happening to the steel industry. The opposition was an irrelevance, this was a threat to jobs and growth that had to be dealt with.

6 and 7. Increased vote share in safe seats where Corbyn was not part of the campaign. Indeed, Jim McMahon from Oldham is a true Blairite.

8. Less familiar which Mayoral elections outside of London, but in the case of London, it's all about the candidates. Khan and Goldsmith were constantly in the media. Khan also tried to keep Corbyn at arms distance- that is significant.

9. Union affiliation. Fair, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing. It's good to be affiliated, but Unions take up just over a third of the National Exec. That is too much influence in my book.

10. The Lords stopped disability cuts. The Commons party were in disarray at this point.

 

[synavm]

You say that you would prefer to have a labour government than a Tory government - but what is the point in having a labour government if all that labour government is going to do is implement the same Tory policies.

The class war is already underway - declared by the Tories and the Blairites with the support of their rich financial backers - yet you also suggest that by labour acknowledging and engaging in defending working class people

To be honest, from what you're saying, I think you're a revolutionary socialist rather than a democratic Socialist/Social Democrat, and I don't think you'll find the solutions you're after in the Labour Party, even with Corbyn.

Now just to pick you up on the Labour Government , here are a list of Tony Blair's achievements in office:

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment was at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities in 2007.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

Now, granted, Blair was FAR from perfect and the Tories might have pursued some of his policies, but to just say he pushed precisely the same Neo-Liberal policies as Thatcher is just rewriting history.

 

[Ernest]

I think it is fair to say the Blairite Red Tories don't want to be a government they want to be soft opposition collecting all their perks as MP's whilst secretly agreeing with Tory policies , trouble is that Jeremy Corbyn wants Labour to be a government and change things hence the Red Tories suddenly realising they will be deselected and their time at the Westminster TROUGH is coming to an end.

Luckily as John McDonnell eloquently put last week the plotters are 'f**king useless' and they will be removed from the Labour Party and if they wish to split into their own faction then good luck to them.

 

[LamieRobertson]

I think it is fair to say the Blairite Red Tories don't want to be a government they want to be soft opposition collecting all their perks as MP's whilst secretly agreeing with Tory policies , trouble is that Jeremy Corbyn wants Labour to be a government and change things hence the Red Tories suddenly realising they will be deselected and their time at the Westminster TROUGH is coming to an end.

Luckily as John McDonnell eloquently put last week the plotters are 'f**king useless' and they will be removed from the Labour Party and if they wish to split into their own faction then good luck to them.

I normally steer clear of these political debates...but comrade...John McDonnell eloquent? LOL

 

[JC Footy Genius]

ICM conducted the first poll out since May became PM which gives the Tories a 10% lead and ... a control question, asking how people would vote if Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn were still leader at the general election has voting intention figures of CON 43%, LAB 28%, suggesting either a significant positive effect from mentioning May or a negative effect from mentioning Corbyn.

A previous ComRes poll found 40% of Labour voters also believe she is a better choice for PM than Corbyn.

But never mind at least Labour have got lots and lots of new members ....

 

[Buzzer]

An absolute must-read for anyone who thinks that Corbyn is either effective, considerate or part-way up to the job.

[tweet]754612709950382080[/tweet]