[News] The 'Dambusters' raid, 75 years ago today (and tomorrow).

[GT49er]

Today we decry the Russians for their killing of innocent civilians in the Ukraine. Someone pointed out on here that around 1600 men , women and children died when the dams were bombed . Nobody cared at the time and it seems that few care today.
I respect the bravery of those who took part who , at the time , did what they thought was right .But today I find it appalling,

What Russia is doing in Ukraine is a war crime. The Dam Busters raid wasn't.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Today we decry the Russians for their killing of innocent civilians in the Ukraine. Someone pointed out on here that around 1600 men , women and children died when the dams were bombed . Nobody cared at the time and it seems that few care today.
I respect the bravery of those who took part who , at the time , did what they thought was right .But today I find it appalling,

Unfortunately people die in war.
War is appalling - what the Germans did in bombing London and Coventry, for example. What the allies did to Cologne - I can remember my dad talking about going in to Cologne as a soldier and it being “two piles of rubble at the side of the road”.
But for someone who feels he ought to be a pacifist, I don’t think I could have “turned the other cheek” in the Second World War, particularly with hindsight knowing what went on at Belsen and Dachau and so many other places

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Today we decry the Russians for their killing of innocent civilians in the Ukraine. Someone pointed out on here that around 1600 men , women and children died when the dams were bombed . Nobody cared at the time and it seems that few care today.
I respect the bravery of those who took part who , at the time , did what they thought was right .But today I find it appalling,

They certainly did care especially when we firebombed Dresden. If the bombs didn’t kill you, the lack of oxygen did. Bomber Harris believed in bombing civilians as the Germans had done in the Blitz, but other military leaders felt we should stick to specific targets. War is a dirty business.

Bomber Command maps reveal extent of German destruction

The scale of devastation wreaked by RAF Bomber Command in World War Two is revealed in detailed maps being published for the first time.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[raymondo]

My nan's brother (so great uncle??) Was a dam buster navigator on a Lancaster.

My mum found all his old war letters and medals in a box in the loft of my nan's house.

My dad saw them and wanted to know more so did a LOAD of research wanting to know more.

Since found out loads. He was shot down over the channel just over the Belgian coast on the return of his 23rd sortie.

We even have the location he was shot down. Where the wreck was found, his squadron, crew, plane number and nickname. (Can't remember exact details off hand)

My dad also found a whole load of WWII maps that he used with notes scribbled on them to help him. They're in almost pristine condition. Not worth a lot in monetary terms but at the same time invaluable memorabilia.

During his research he went with my mum up to RAF Coningsby where the Memorial Flight Lancaster is based and took all the letters and maps with him.

The Lancaster was grounded as it was having repair work done but they spent hours in the museum and having a look around.

They went to a cafe to have a coffee and two blokes in airsuits sat near them. My dad being dad started a conversation asking if they were pilots and was told that they were called Roger and Ian the pilot and navigator of the Lancaster.

It was then that my dad said "I have something in my bag that may interest you" and preceded to show them all the letters, medals and maps he had.

The two blokes. Roger Collins the pilot and Ian Shaw the navigator were awestruck and in awe of it all as they're still serving RAF.

My dad said to Ian that he wanted him to keep two of the maps and gave them to him. At first he wouldn't take them saying they should be museum pieces but my dad insisted. He begrudgingly took them.

As a thankyou Roger said "come with me I have something to show you". And then took them to the hanger that the Lancaster is stored in. Due to the repairs happening they couldn't start it but the two of them gave my mum and dad a personal tour of the whole plane. Every part of it. Even in the cockpit. He allowed my dad to sit in the pilot seat. My mum refused, even after lots of cajoling but insisted that it was a "mans seat, a seat for heroes" and wasn't comfortable sitting in it.

Whilst in the cockpit, Ian, the navigator took the two maps and put one on the board and one on the bench area and said " these stay here, and will never be moved, these maps belong on this plane, as part of history, every time this plane flies be safe in the knowledge that they are here as a mark of respect to those few brave souls".

I personally think it's amazing that my family paid so much and somehow by a twist of luck and being in the right place at the right that they my parents met Roger and Ian.

If ever you see the Lancaster memorial flight know that there is genuine maps from WWII missions in that cockpit.

This was 3 years ago this happened and I saw the Lancaster last year flying. I cried at the thought of this and am now writing it.

My two pennies worth anyway.....

Lovely story, thanks for sharing

 

[jakarta]

Unfortunately people die in war.
War is appalling - what the Germans did in bombing London and Coventry, for example. What the allies did to Cologne - I can remember my dad talking about going in to Cologne as a soldier and it being “two piles of rubble at the side of the road”.
But for someone who feels he ought to be a pacifist, I don’t think I could have “turned the other cheek” in the Second World War, particularly with hindsight knowing what went on at Belsen and Dachau and so many other places

Quite, having been to Auschwitz -Birgeneau I'm afraid I have little sympathy for that generation of Germans, even civilians, who allowed the Nazis to gain power and frankly only came to regret it when they starting losing their war of aggression.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Quite, having been to Auschwitz -Birgeneau I'm afraid I have little sympathy for that generation of Germans, even civilians, who allowed the Nazis to gain power and frankly only came to regret it when they starting losing their war of aggression.

Once politics gets to a certain stage, fear takes over. Neighbours reporting neighbours for speaking out, church leaders also put into Auschwitz for trying to help people. Starvation means people get desperate. A famous Dutch lady, Corrie Ten Boom, along with her family, were hiding Jewish people, but was betrayed by a Dutch neighbour, who was promised extra rations, if they gave them away.
Don’t judge everyone the same. There were good and bad in every country on both sides. Even in Britain, we had profiteers, wide men, who could ‘obtain’ anything you wanted. There were women enjoying the company of men, whilst their husbands were away.
Nothing is ever good or evil, but many many shades of grey.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Once politics gets to a certain stage, fear takes over. Neighbours reporting neighbours for speaking out, church leaders also put into Auschwitz for trying to help people. Starvation means people get desperate. A famous Dutch lady, Corrie Ten Boom, along with her family, were hiding Jewish people, but was betrayed by a Dutch neighbour, who was promised extra rations, if they gave them away.
Don’t judge everyone the same. There were good and bad in every country on both sides. Even in Britain, we had profiteers, wide men, who could ‘obtain’ anything you wanted. There were women enjoying the company of men, whilst their husbands were away.
Nothing is ever good or evil, but many many shades of grey.

Quite.
I can remember being horrified once when my grandad once said “the only good German is a dead German. I was too young to argue with him, or even to register my shock, but I guess having heard other stories from him (he died in 1984) I can understand why he felt like that.
One of Mrs DiS’s uncles served in the Second World War. He holidayed a lot in Europe, but on principle would never drive throughGermany or Italy.
My own dad, on the other hand, told of how in Berlin after the end of the war he helped cut down the bodies from lampposts of Germans who had been lynched by other Germans because of things that were done during the war.
And plenty of Germans who could left Germany before the war because of what was happening - one of my literary heroes, Bertold Brecht, being one who did.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

The letter was obviously sent by a vile racist. Nothing to do with Guy Gibson's dog being called ******, or even the word '******'. That piece of racist shit would be a piece of racist shit whether the word existed or not.
If some people can't recognise the difference made by context, they really need to give their heads a wobble.

I know we’re five years on from when this was posted, but context doesn’t stop the word being offensive.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Quite.
I can remember being horrified once when my grandad once said “the only good German is a dead German. I was too young to argue with him, or even to register my shock, but I guess having heard other stories from him (he died in 1984) I can understand why he felt like that.
One of Mrs DiS’s uncles served in the Second World War. He holidayed a lot in Europe, but on principle would never drive throughGermany or Italy.
My own dad, on the other hand, told of how in Berlin after the end of the war he helped cut down the bodies from lampposts of Germans who had been lynched by other Germans because of things that were done during the war.
And plenty of Germans who could left Germany before the war because of what was happening - one of my literary heroes, Bertold Brecht, being one who did.

One of my heroes was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pastor, who was banned from speaking as early as 1936. He was eventually hung with 6 others including a German Admiral, and a General, all Resistance fighters in April 1945, after being stripped naked.

Another was Maximilian Kolbe, a Polish Catholic priest, who volunteered to take the place of a married man with children, to be starved to death in a cellar. He was still alive after two weeks without food or water, so the Nazis injected him with poison.
Franciszek Gajowniczek, the man Kolbe saved at Auschwitz, survived the Holocaust and was present as a guest at both the beatification and the canonization ceremonies of Maximilian.

 

[GT49er]

I know we’re five years on from when this was posted, but context doesn’t stop the word being offensive.

It's a shame people haven't understood 'context' even after five years of (presumably deliberately not) trying. Calling a dark brown dog that name in 1940 wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, and certainly wouldn't have intended offence.

 

[raymondo]

Once politics gets to a certain stage, fear takes over. Neighbours reporting neighbours for speaking out, church leaders also put into Auschwitz for trying to help people. Starvation means people get desperate. A famous Dutch lady, Corrie Ten Boom, along with her family, were hiding Jewish people, but was betrayed by a Dutch neighbour, who was promised extra rations, if they gave them away.
Don’t judge everyone the same. There were good and bad in every country on both sides. Even in Britain, we had profiteers, wide men, who could ‘obtain’ anything you wanted. There were women enjoying the company of men, whilst their husbands were away.
Nothing is ever good or evil, but many many shades of grey.

And to a smaller degree, some of that will be happening in Russia at the moment.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And to a smaller degree, some of that will be happening in Russia at the moment.

I think to a larger degree, to be honest. There will be those who betray their neighbours for better jobs, or promotion and those who keep their heads down and say nothing.
It's human nature the world over.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

One of my heroes was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pastor, who was banned from speaking as early as 1936. He was eventually hung with 6 others including a German Admiral, and a General, all Resistance fighters in April 1945, after being stripped naked.

Another was Maximilian Kolbe, a Polish Catholic priest, who volunteered to take the place of a married man with children, to be starved to death in a cellar. He was still alive after two weeks without food or water, so the Nazis injected him with poison.
Franciszek Gajowniczek, the man Kolbe saved at Auschwitz, survived the Holocaust and was present as a guest at both the beatification and the canonization ceremonies of Maximilian.

Indeed Bonhoeffer was a hero…. And as you point out he was by no means the only one.

 

[Nottseagull]

It's a shame people haven't understood 'context' even after five years of (presumably deliberately not) trying. Calling a dark brown dog that name in 1940 wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, and certainly wouldn't have intended offence.

Was it actually dark brown?
This matters, because I always presumed the dog was black and innocently named after the Latin word for that colour by the pilots, most of whom came from schools where Latin was taught. If it was dark brown, then that would lead to some uncomfortable questioning of my theory.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Was it actually dark brown?
This matters, because I always presumed the dog was black and innocently named after the Latin word for that colour by the pilots, most of whom came from schools where Latin was taught. If it was dark brown, then that would lead to some uncomfortable questioning of my theory.

I've seen newspaper adverts of the 1930's, and [unmentionable word] brown was a colour description used at the time. It simply wasn't seen as an offensive word.

It may be OK to airbrush it out of a film now because it's offensive now, but Gibson would have had no idea of it being offensive then. It's similar to the words gay and queer - no-one who used those words in the 1930's should be accused of homophobia because of the entirely different context.

 

[Nottseagull]

It's similar to the words gay and queer - no-one who used those words in the 1930's should be accused of homophobia because of the entirely different context.

That's true of gay but I'm presuming you must be a relative youngster, because the word queer was definitely derogatory in the 1970s, especially when used as a noun. It has since been 'reclaimed', a bit like when Ipswich fans reclaimed the agricultural slurs. In fact the word gay was positively hijacked, and in the 1930s had nothing to do with homosexuality.

 

[Happy Exile]

Reading this thread again there's some fascinating stories. I volunteered for a bit at Brooklands before it was opened properly as a museum and got to spend a fair bit of time with Norman "Spud" Boorer who was assistant to Barnes Wallis in the war and is mentioned in various books for his role. He was an incredible artist as well as an interesting person to spend time with, and his paintings can be found with a Google search.

Dresden and Coventry are mentioned above too. In my first ever "proper" job I worked with a lady whose father was a codebreaker at Bletchley Park and she always used to say her father hated Churchill because they knew Coventry was going to be bombed and Churchill allegedly made the decision not to warn or evacuate anyone or send up enough aircraft to intercept. Don't know if that's true or not. Supposedly partly to protect the fact they were breaking the codes, but more down to the fact he wanted an excuse to bomb German cities and start chipping away at morale. The complex decisions of wartime that we can't judge with hindsight I'm sure.

 

[portlock seagull]

That's true of gay but I'm presuming you must be a relative youngster, because the word queer was definitely derogatory in the 1970s, especially when used as a noun. It has since been 'reclaimed', a bit like when Ipswich fans reclaimed the agricultural slurs. In fact the word gay was positively hijacked, and in the 1930s had nothing to do with homosexuality.

Queer wasn’t gay either. It meant odd. Plenty people said I feel a bit queer meaning they felt unwell. And still do, meaning just that. In the literal sense I should be able to say I feel a bit queer, or they’re a bit queer, without a bunch of snowflakes getting upset because they only know one meaning when most words in our language have several! By then however Twitter has exploded and no one is listening so we have to avoid such words…because of the dumb, essentially

 

[dsr-burnley]

Reading this thread again there's some fascinating stories. I volunteered for a bit at Brooklands before it was opened properly as a museum and got to spend a fair bit of time with Norman "Spud" Boorer who was assistant to Barnes Wallis in the war and is mentioned in various books for his role. He was an incredible artist as well as an interesting person to spend time with, and his paintings can be found with a Google search.

Dresden and Coventry are mentioned above too. In my first ever "proper" job I worked with a lady whose father was a codebreaker at Bletchley Park and she always used to say her father hated Churchill because they knew Coventry was going to be bombed and Churchill allegedly made the decision not to warn or evacuate anyone or send up enough aircraft to intercept. Don't know if that's true or not. Supposedly partly to protect the fact they were breaking the codes, but more down to the fact he wanted an excuse to bomb German cities and start chipping away at morale. The complex decisions of wartime that we can't judge with hindsight I'm sure.

I think it's generally believed that the warning came too late. Besides which, it's highly unlikely that this lady's father would have been both senior enough to know when Churchill got the message, and loose-lipped enough to spill the secret.

It's certain that they wanted to protect the secret of the encryption, but the other reason is surely untrue. The London blitz had already been going for more than 2 months, which would have been reason enough.

 

[GT49er]

Was it actually dark brown?
This matters, because I always presumed the dog was black and innocently named after the Latin word for that colour by the pilots, most of whom came from schools where Latin was taught. If it was dark brown, then that would lead to some uncomfortable questioning of my theory.

It was an official name for a particular shade of Brown (maybe still officially is, even if no longer in common yse) - n***** brown.