Teachers Strike

[Seagull on the wing]

Nobody is FORCED to be a teacher...a car mechanic...a solicitor or anything else...if you don't like the the terms then move on.
The reason for kids not being fully educated is the lack of discipline in classes although some do manage to get high grades and yes,I have seen this myself by going back to school as a mature student to get more 'A' levels. Lessons have changed in their agenda,that's a move of the times,but children today sit in classes,playing with their mobile phones,answering the teacher back with no respect. Bring back discipline and find the difference between an educated child and a school drop out!

 

[Barrel of Fun]

If teachers are in it for pay and benefits they're in the wrong game. There's loads to hang Gove on but fulfilling his budget obligations isn't one of them. The pensions issue is pure selfishness. Addressing the inane way our schools are micro managed isn't. Protest against the latter and I'll join you on the picket line. Whine about your pension and you can take a number and queue up with the rest of the whingers.

Why does wanting to protect your rights have anything to do with profiteering?

Yeah. Cut my pay. Please do so. I couldn't give a fig. Why not just give us a monthly allowance and we'll do the job for free.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Nobody is FORCED to be a teacher...a car mechanic...a solicitor or anything else...if you don't like the the terms then move on.
The reason for kids not being fully educated is the lack of discipline in classes although some do manage to get high grades and yes,I have seen this myself by going back to school as a mature student to get more 'A' levels. Lessons have changed in their agenda,that's a move of the times,but children today sit in classes,playing with their mobile phones,answering the teacher back with no respect. Bring back discipline and find the difference between an educated child and a school drop out!

Brilliant! Lack of discipline? I'd be interested to know when and where your observations took place. All gadgets are turned in to the safe when they enter school, certainly in my one.

You are a Daily Mail soundbite. Have a gold star.

 

[Creaky]

Nobody is FORCED to be a teacher...a car mechanic...a solicitor or anything else...if you don't like the the terms then move on.
The reason for kids not being fully educated is the lack of discipline in classes although some do manage to get high grades and yes,I have seen this myself by going back to school as a mature student to get more 'A' levels. Lessons have changed in their agenda,that's a move of the times,but children today sit in classes,playing with their mobile phones,answering the teacher back with no respect. Bring back discipline and find the difference between an educated child and a school drop out!

That is exactly what is happening - why do you think there is such a shortage of teachers.

If a garage needs more mechanics do they make the salary package less attractive

 

[wellquickwoody]

Where on earth did you get this figure? Most PGSE students have to pay thousands to complete their course. The biggest issue with this argument is ill-informed idiots spouting rubbish.

Didn't think I would ever say this to you.......read the whole thread! Someone else, maybe a teacher, quoted this earlier.

Edit: Post number 18

 

[wellquickwoody]

Proof please.

I did three years at University (and a bit more) and have completed another year at the cost of about £12k.

£18k to train! You make it sound so brilliant. The courses must be inundated with applicants. Why don't you have a go?

Just quoting what another contributor to the thread has offered. No interest in being a teacher whatsoever, far too left leaning for me.......

Edit: Post number 18

 

[Guinness Boy]

Well on that basis you might as well pay them at subsistence level - education standards wouldn't fall, would they?

No one's suggesting paying teachers at subsistence level. As usual you've taken one sentence in a paragraph and extended it to the worst case scenario before presenting it back. Quite clearly what I meant was that teaching is a vocation, not something that you go in to in order to make your fortune.

I'll clarify it for you a little further. If someone suggested paying teachers subsistence levels I would also go on strike on your behalf and so would every parent in the country who gave a damn about their child's education. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about changing the terms of a pension scheme that the country cannot afford and that anyone working in the private sector doesn't get. There is a budget gap to plug unless you want to end up like Greece. Perhaps you could suggest how you'd plug it instead. What miraculous way are we missing to make companies like Starbucks pay more tax? And if you don't think you could achieve that what services should we be cutting instead?

 

[Brighton Mod]

If you want the kids to be educated well then employ the best by paying teachers a decent salary and ensuring they work hours which are commensurate with them being able to be sharp, alert and reactive to the classes in their charge. Pilots, surgeons and lorry drivers have restrictive hours for a reason. If you want the UK to carry on going on down the pan then carry on with your attitude.

Well you are correct, truck drivers can work up to 70 hours a week in that time being behind the wheel for 56 hours. They are paid a lot less than teachers and don't have the generous holiday leave entitlement. Those restrictive hours are double what a teacher works, not a very good comparison. So if your thesis that if we pay more we get better teacher is correct the solution is simple the more money they are paid the sharper and more alert they become, but I'm lead to believe that this strike is not only about money?

 

[Creaky]

No one's suggesting paying teachers at subsistence level. As usual you've taken one sentence in a paragraph and extended it to the worst case scenario before presenting it back. Quite clearly what I meant was that teaching is a vocation, not something that you go in to in order to make your fortune.

I'll clarify it for you a little further. If someone suggested paying teachers subsistence levels I would also go on strike on your behalf and so would every parent in the country who gave a damn about their child's education. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about changing the terms of a pension scheme that the country cannot afford and that anyone working in the private sector doesn't get. There is a budget gap to plug unless you want to end up like Greece. Perhaps you could suggest how you'd plug it instead. What miraculous way are we missing to make companies like Starbucks pay more tax? And if you don't think you could achieve that what services should we be cutting instead?

So you'd support a strike if teachers were paid at subsistence level but not at their current level which implies there has to be a point somewhere between the two, lower than the current level of pay which you believe teachers should accept - yet there is a shortage of teachers. How do you square that circle

Teaching is vocational, in other words it not only needs people who have a 'calling' to do the job but also those who are suited to carry out the work this entails. Vocational positions are often the most difficult ones to fill as there is a limited pool of candidates available - there are certainly no grounds to support the idea that pay scales for such jobs should be lower than for non-vocational ones - actually I'd argue they need to be higher.

As regards the pension scheme it is simply not true to say that similar pension schemes aren't available in the private sector! There are many private pension schemes that were based on a final salary but which have now been closed to new employees but have continued for those who joined it prior to the cut off date. Yes there have been cases where companies have misused funds in those schemes and where employees have consequently suffered, that doesn't justify the government doing the same.

As for affordability the Teacher's Pension Scheme is different to most public sector schemes in that payments from employees and employers don't go into a central government pot but are administered by the TPS which was set up in 1923 and has its own pension scheme registration. The NUT, (for what that's worth), calculate that since 1923 the TPS has paid out £46 Billion pounds less in pensions than it has received in contributions.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So you'd support a strike if teachers were paid at subsistence level but not at their current level which implies there has to be a point somewhere between the two, lower than the current level of pay which you believe teachers should accept - yet there is a shortage of teachers. How do you square that circle

Once again that's not what I said. You've implied it not me. You're quite good at that.

As regards the pension scheme it is simply not true to say that similar pension schemes aren't available in the private sector! There are many private pension schemes that were based on a final salary but which have now been closed to new employees but have continued for those who joined it prior to the cut off date. Yes there have been cases where companies have misused funds in those schemes and where employees have consequently suffered, that doesn't justify the government doing the same.

You simply will not get a final salary scheme these days in the private sector when you start. And guess what? In that sector people start new jobs ALL THE TIME. The labour market is far more fluid and with less union representation the private sector is also more likely to make redundancies, against which the worker cannot strike. Likewise companies fail (or get taken over) far more often than schools or hospitals. As soon as you've lost your job or moved on for a bigger one you've lost any chance of a final salary scheme. And let's not even start on Gordon Brown's tax raid on private pensions....

As for affordability the Teacher's Pension Scheme is different to most public sector schemes in that payments from employees and employers don't go into a central government pot but are administered by the TPS which was set up in 1923 and has its own pension scheme registration. The NUT, (for what that's worth), calculate that since 1923 the TPS has paid out £46 Billion pounds less in pensions than it has received in contributions.

Disingenuous nonsense. The TPS administers on behalf of the government in the shape of the DoE. Employers contributions in to the scheme come from the public purse. It's all money that comes from the state and therefore it can be redistributed in a budget.

 

[Creaky]

Once again that's not what I said. You've implied it not me. You're quite good at that.

But what other implication can there be

You don't support a strike at the current level of pay but would at a lower level.

You simply will not get a final salary scheme these days in the private sector when you start. And guess what? In that sector people start new jobs ALL THE TIME. The labour market is far more fluid and with less union representation the private sector is also more likely to make redundancies, against which the worker cannot strike. Likewise companies fail (or get taken over) far more often than schools or hospitals. As soon as you've lost your job or moved on for a bigger one you've lost any chance of a final salary scheme. And let's not even start on Gordon Brown's tax raid on private pensions....

You are missing the point - yes the number of Final Salary schemes available to new employees in the private sector is now miniscule BUT where Final Salary schemes have closed to new employees they have been kept for current members. NOT the case with the changes in the teacher's pension. How is that fair and just when the pension benefits were part of the original contract of employment.

Disingenuous nonsense. The TPS administers on behalf of the government in the shape of the DoE. Employers contributions in to the scheme come from the public purse. It's all money that comes from the state and therefore it can be redistributed in a budget.

[/QUOTE]

Except that the scheme is separate, with its own registration and financial records. Yes contributions and payments go into the central government pot, in exactly the same way that pension payments in the private sector used to belong to the company rather than the employees which led to fiascos like the Robert Maxwell case where the fund was used for purposes it was never intended for. You are trying to justify the government doing exactly the same.

 

[Geestar]

Well done on all the teachers yesterday!

 

[Husty]

Well done onall the teachers yesterday!

Well done TO all the teachers, D- see me after class.

 

[Luke93]

Well done TO all the teachers; D-, see me after class.

.

 

[Frampler]

Teachers are treated like shit by central Government, the education policy of which is devised by people who have never set foot in a state school classroom, and who think that the exam success of private schools is down to an ethos and breeding rather than money and exclusion of problem children.

No Government listens to them, so it's no wonder that teachers feel the need to go on strike. What really puzzles me though, is this idea that they should refrain from going on strike because private sector pension provision is now terrible. Has it not occurred that one of the reasons private sector final salary pensions have been shut down is that the non-unionised workforces didn't take action to preserve their terms and conditions? Instead, they bought the myth that their measly pensions were gold-plated, unaffordable, a block on economic progress. A myth that was sold to them by an executive class that proceeded to spend the savings on its own bonuses, salaries and pensions. All the money is being sucked upwards in this country, and I applaud any group of workers trying to stop that.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is yet another depressing NSC thread, where machismos attempt to out-compete each other in the race to the bottom.
For over a century, workers combined to reduce their working hours, increase their pay and improve their working conditions. The economy thrived when this happened.
This has gone into reverse over the past few decades, and many in this country and on NSC seem to revel in it.

 

[BadFish]

Teachers are treated like shit by central Government, the education policy of which is devised by people who have never set foot in a state school classroom, and who think that the exam success of private schools is down to an ethos and breeding rather than money and exclusion of problem children.

No Government listens to them, so it's no wonder that teachers feel the need to go on strike. What really puzzles me though, is this idea that they should refrain from going on strike because private sector pension provision is now terrible. Has it not occurred that one of the reasons private sector final salary pensions have been shut down is that the non-unionised workforces didn't take action to preserve their terms and conditions? Instead, they bought the myth that their measly pensions were gold-plated, unaffordable, a block on economic progress. A myth that was sold to them by an executive class that proceeded to spend the savings on its own bonuses, salaries and pensions. All the money is being sucked upwards in this country, and I applaud any group of workers trying to stop that.

A cracking post. The money is being sucked up while everyone else is in a race to the bottom fighting over crumbs and blaming each other. It really is the perfect Orwellian plot being played out before our very eyes.