Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Hastings gull]

Post 4242 was quite incoherent. Any chance you could re-post it as a straight question? I'll happily answer it.



I'm happily an ex-commuter on that line. Thank Christ. Won't even go up into London town anymore in the evenings if I can at all avoid it, due to the inevitable shittiness of getting home. And that's on non-strike days, when Southern only have to run the service they are contracted to run. In answer to your question, the Brighton line should be targeted simply because it's used by all of our local MPs to get to and from their place of work. Plus, up-f*cking the London-based economy tends to make London bosses and media outlets throw their weight around and exert extra pressure where it should rightfully be exerted.

Precisely as I thought. Vindictive bluster. So because you say that a handful of local MPS use the Brighton line, this should be targeted, and thousands of innocent folk really messed about. I wonder how they feel reading this. And how did I know that you would not be personally inconvenienced! What a surprise! Obviously the rubbish about how you would not use it anyway was designed to lend some credence and make your selfishness that shade more presentable. And you accuse others of being ideologues!

 

[pearl]

We only have that paragon of virtue, Ernest's version, and we all know that he who would never stray from the total truth. Of course we do not know what happened, but IF the driver had been negligent, then I am sure that RMT will not be shouting too loudly, unless they can work it round to blame the situation.

IF the driver had been negligent what would YOU like to happen to them I wonder!?

 

[Hastings gull]

You see for me this is where the driver's argument falls down. You have two parts of this franchise (I've driven trains for both by the way) and can tell you it's no fun when you are on your own with a packed 8-car train being told by the signaller that, because of a fault with a safety system, I have to detrain my passengers at Selhurst and take the empty train to Selhurst Depot. This would have left about 800 very angry people with no more direct services through the City in the rush-hour and having to circulate via Victoria or going back to East Croydon.
But Thameslink drivers did and still do run DOO trains in even longer formations. DOO? I don't agree with it as I think having another person to deal with the needs of passengers in an incident while I (the Driver) deal with the operational side of things is the best solution. Drivers, when DOO was introduced, were quite happy to take the extra pay involved in working a shift involving DOO trains. In fact many would go out of their way (after working a non-DOO shift) to work a DOO train after their shift had ended to get both the extra time AND the DOO payment. But that was in the days when our salary, such as it was, was made up of many add-ons like attendance allowance, mileage and DOO. Now drivers have all their pay (except perhaps London Weighting) consolidated into a fixed salary (plus overtime) So DOO has even less appeal. I could see this issue and it's consequences a mile off - as soon as Southern got the franchise. But both parties , especially the unions, have been caught off-guard. Having 12-car trains rattling quite merrily up and down the BML in Thameslink livery with the sanction of Aslef surely negates their argument to Southern asking the same thing for them. And I say that with a total dislike for Southern.

Thanks for this and it is all too rare to actually have an insight from someone in the industry and not someone coming on here, spouting their obsessions and one-way diatribes. I am a layman here and am trying to get to the bottom of what it is all about, but it is incredibly difficult to sift out the fact from the ideological fiction, and I am sure that both sides are equally to blame. Sorry if I am being thick, but I didn't understand your last sentence.

 

[Hastings gull]

IF the driver had been negligent what would YOU like to happen to them I wonder!?

Is that really a very bright question? Should we not let the courts or whatever decide such matters? What about the stocks in front of Victoria station?

 

[beorhthelm]

Plus, up-f*cking the London-based economy tends to make London bosses and media outlets throw their weight around and exert extra pressure where it should rightfully be exerted.

on the RMT who are repsonsible for the strikes? or on Southern responsible for the other delays? (or network rail for that matter). i can see you want to escalate through direct action to replace one set of government policy based on ideological reasons for another set of ideological reasons, i just cant understand why you want to impact on hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of this. why is your ideological reasons better than the others to justify this imposition?

 

[pasty]

Post 4242 was quite incoherent. Any chance you could re-post it as a straight question? I'll happily answer it.



I'm happily an ex-commuter on that line. Thank Christ. Won't even go up into London town anymore in the evenings if I can at all avoid it, due to the inevitable shittiness of getting home. And that's on non-strike days, when Southern only have to run the service they are contracted to run. In answer to your question, the Brighton line should be targeted simply because it's used by all of our local MPs to get to and from their place of work. Plus, up-f*cking the London-based economy tends to make London bosses and media outlets throw their weight around and exert extra pressure where it should rightfully be exerted.

Cor blimey. Talk about "I'm all right Jack" and bollox to the 1000's of Brighton -> London commuters

 

[Hastings gull]

You see for me this is where the driver's argument falls down. You have two parts of this franchise (I've driven trains for both by the way) and can tell you it's no fun when you are on your own with a packed 8-car train being told by the signaller that, because of a fault with a safety system, I have to detrain my passengers at Selhurst and take the empty train to Selhurst Depot. This would have left about 800 very angry people with no more direct services through the City in the rush-hour and having to circulate via Victoria or going back to East Croydon.
But Thameslink drivers did and still do run DOO trains in even longer formations. DOO? I don't agree with it as I think having another person to deal with the needs of passengers in an incident while I (the Driver) deal with the operational side of things is the best solution. Drivers, when DOO was introduced, were quite happy to take the extra pay involved in working a shift involving DOO trains. In fact many would go out of their way (after working a non-DOO shift) to work a DOO train after their shift had ended to get both the extra time AND the DOO payment. But that was in the days when our salary, such as it was, was made up of many add-ons like attendance allowance, mileage and DOO. Now drivers have all their pay (except perhaps London Weighting) consolidated into a fixed salary (plus overtime) So DOO has even less appeal. I could see this issue and it's consequences a mile off - as soon as Southern got the franchise. But both parties , especially the unions, have been caught off-guard. Having 12-car trains rattling quite merrily up and down the BML in Thameslink livery with the sanction of Aslef surely negates their argument to Southern asking the same thing for them. And I say that with a total dislike for Southern.

I had another thought about your excellent post, that really does shine some light. We have always been told that it is about safety, and whilst I fully take your point that it is better to have a second person on board to attend to passenger matters, particularly if there is an incident, presumably on Thameslink prior to the introduction of DOO, they had conductors, who lost their jobs? But the drivers were, again presumably,seemingly not too bothered about that as they could benefit financially from a spot of DOO overtime. If this is indeed the case, then where were RMT in all of this? This does not add up to my layman's mind.

 

[Hastings gull]

Cor blimey. Talk about "I'm all right Jack" and bollox to the 1000's of Brighton -> London commuters

Absolutely. the rest of you can all do one . .

 

[pearl]

Is that really a very bright question? Should we not let the courts or whatever decide such matters? What about the stocks in front of Victoria station?

wasn't meant to be a very bright question, but you've told me all I needed to know - cheers

 

[Hastings gull]

wasn't meant to be a very bright question, but you've told me all I needed to know - cheers

Yes, the stocks it is, since you asked.

 

[pearl]

You see for me this is where the driver's argument falls down. You have two parts of this franchise (I've driven trains for both by the way) and can tell you it's no fun when you are on your own with a packed 8-car train being told by the signaller that, because of a fault with a safety system, I have to detrain my passengers at Selhurst and take the empty train to Selhurst Depot. This would have left about 800 very angry people with no more direct services through the City in the rush-hour and having to circulate via Victoria or going back to East Croydon.
But Thameslink drivers did and still do run DOO trains in even longer formations. DOO? I don't agree with it as I think having another person to deal with the needs of passengers in an incident while I (the Driver) deal with the operational side of things is the best solution. Drivers, when DOO was introduced, were quite happy to take the extra pay involved in working a shift involving DOO trains. In fact many would go out of their way (after working a non-DOO shift) to work a DOO train after their shift had ended to get both the extra time AND the DOO payment. But that was in the days when our salary, such as it was, was made up of many add-ons like attendance allowance, mileage and DOO. Now drivers have all their pay (except perhaps London Weighting) consolidated into a fixed salary (plus overtime) So DOO has even less appeal. I could see this issue and it's consequences a mile off - as soon as Southern got the franchise. But both parties , especially the unions, have been caught off-guard. Having 12-car trains rattling quite merrily up and down the BML in Thameslink livery with the sanction of Aslef surely negates their argument to Southern asking the same thing for them. And I say that with a total dislike for Southern.

interesting post, thanks

 

[Ernest]

[tweet]795690410786123776[/tweet]

 

[Hastings gull]

[tweet]795690410786123776[/tweet]

You just feel so desperately sorry for the people who only want to get home.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Precisely as I thought. Vindictive bluster. So because you say that a handful of local MPS use the Brighton line, this should be targeted, and thousands of innocent folk really messed about. I wonder how they feel reading this. And how did I know that you would not be personally inconvenienced! What a surprise! Obviously the rubbish about how you would not use it anyway was designed to lend some credence and make your selfishness that shade more presentable. And you accuse others of being ideologues!

I commuted on that line for decades and only recently stopped. Too right it's vindictive. I used to regard Connex & Railtrack as The Great Satan. But they were just incompetent. This current lot are something else completely. Obscene levels of greed. Of course I hate seeing the levels of stress and anxiety being foisted on travellers on the mainline, but if a very short shutdown of the line forced the government into removing this wretched company from the franchise and replacing it with one that got paid according to performance, then IMHO it would be preferable to the current situation. There's only been a handful of strike dates, but the service is excrement every day. Presumably you'd be happy to see this situation continue until the end of Southern's contract?

 

[theboybilly]

Thanks for this and it is all too rare to actually have an insight from someone in the industry and not someone coming on here, spouting their obsessions and one-way diatribes. I am a layman here and am trying to get to the bottom of what it is all about, but it is incredibly difficult to sift out the fact from the ideological fiction, and I am sure that both sides are equally to blame. Sorry if I am being thick, but I didn't understand your last sentence.

Sorry HG, what I meant was that for years Thameslink have been running DOO trains up and down the Brighton Main Line with Aslef sanction (My Conductor mates on the Gatwick Express didn't take kindly to Aslef and the old NUR selling them down the river but that's another story). There doesn't appear to there being any problem from the union when 12-car trains were introduced without the need of a Conductor on Thameslink. So I don't understand how Aslef can argue that Southern trains running in the same formation with largely similar trains is dangerous. I can argue this point but for me Aslef can't - they sold that right away in the late 1980s when Class 319s were introduced on the BML

 

[jamie the seagull]

Removing the franchise from Southern will not resolve the issue.
Remove the existing staff will....it really is that simple.

 

[theboybilly]

Removing the franchise from Southern will not resolve the issue.
Remove the existing staff will....it really is that simple.

No it's not that simple. There are a lot of excellent Southern staff trying their best with their hands tied by a woeful middle management. A lot of this ghastly crew were there when Connex were being heavy-handed over trivial issues like wearing fecking kepis! They were complicit then and are doing their worst again now. The poor front-line staff are having to work under some real pressure from the angry public. I understand the anger and am not trying to play down the frustration. But this is a battle of wills between the unions and Southern bosses and their willing helpers. Southern don't like their staff (especially drivers) - they see them as a necessary evil. The travelling public are paying for this attitude

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

Removing the franchise from Southern will not resolve the issue.
Remove the existing staff will....it really is that simple.

Only the guards. Amd make it ilegal to re hire them. I think the others do a sterling job frankly.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Apparently there's quite a lot of smoke, mirrors and spin when it comes to the reporting statistics used by the TOCs. Who would have thunk it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37835087

 

[Hastings gull]

Sorry HG, what I meant was that for years Thameslink have been running DOO trains up and down the Brighton Main Line with Aslef sanction (My Conductor mates on the Gatwick Express didn't take kindly to Aslef and the old NUR selling them down the river but that's another story). There doesn't appear to there being any problem from the union when 12-car trains were introduced without the need of a Conductor on Thameslink. So I don't understand how Aslef can argue that Southern trains running in the same formation with largely similar trains is dangerous. I can argue this point but for me Aslef can't - they sold that right away in the late 1980s when Class 319s were introduced on the BML

Thanks again - your posts have shown that the rail unions are far from whiter than white in this whole mess. Inconsistency and selfishness seem to dominate, and it is just so annoying when they appear on TV telling us that they are so concerned about the public's safety, although I am sure that no one really believes that anymore. I know you are not keen on Southern's management and I realise that it does not make them "right" if some of the union's actions are "wrong".