[News] Post Office Scandal -

[kevo]

I started at the top but then the dodgy culture permeated through the PO. Bottom line on all of this is that the Post Office couldn’t prove theft as they actually couldn’t find any money in subpostmasters bank accounts etc. One investigation included asking a happily married man if he was keeping a mistress and if he was giving the money to her. Just ridiculous.

There was no trail of money going anywhere at all….just a loss on the system. They took people to court, pursued them for money the didn’t owe and at no point did anyone think it was a bit weird that 700+ people who were generally seen to be pillars of the community suddenly became criminals. And criminals that were so clever that neither they or the PO could find the missing money!!!

That also struck me when I was watching it. There was no evidence of them depositing or spending any of the money!

 

[Milano]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

 

[Sirnormangall]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

I think that person(s) will most likely be found in the IT supplier, not the PO, but there may have been collusion between both.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

Be interesting to know just how much liability Horizon have in all this, and whether or not their liability is nil if the Post Office signed it off.

 

[Talby]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

Who knew what is complex. What is coming out of the Inquiry is the human suffering….ill health (both physical & mental), a lack of sense of worth, helplessness (leading to suicide for some) and isolation (it’s only you!!). These people were so frightened of going to prison that they pleaded guilty to false accounting because the PO could do private prosecutions and constantly hound them. They entered people’s homes and found zilch. It was definitely a culture created by the PO - protect the brand!

All the while PO staff were getting bonuses for money ‘recovered’ and successful prosecutions.

 

[Sirnormangall]

For starters, there's a petition to strip the Vennels woman of her CBE. Pile in!

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?

you.38degrees.org.uk

As of a couple of hours ago the petition stood at > 900k signatures. Apparently Alan Bates has declined an OBE until Vennels is stripped of her CBE, so keep piling in.

 

[clapham_gull]

of course it's IT related, my point is the problems stem from the management. if they'd treated reports more honestly and objectively as bug reports, investigated as anomolies in the software and rechecked audit trails, they might have seen that errors where occuring and responded appropriately. that cant be accounted for in system testing. as i recall (from IT press over the decade) there were problems with the audit software and supposed restrictions to modify data. then there was procedural issue with how accounts were reconciled. these are operational and design matters, the software was doing as it was told but the process itself flawed.

someone senior probably did know it was flawed, however the pitch was it was supposed to be secure and incorruptible, and that perception pervaded investigations. most involved, the auditors and legal people, wouldn't be technical and just followed along with that policy.

The issue at the Post Office was also the "responsibility" model, which I think now has been challenged and deemed a misinterpretation of the contracts.

Even if a Post Master spotted a bug that a customer was exploiting the branch was STILL liable for the losses.

All the risk was the branch side, although technically the money in the till belonged to the government.

 

[tedebear]

Be interesting to know just how much liability Horizon have in all this, and whether or not their liability is nil if the Post Office signed it off.

Probably none if the PO signed it off as you say. But maybe Futjutsu's individuals will come a cropper in terms of falisifying evidence if what Nick Wallis is writing is proven correct:

Why hasn’t Fujitsu sacked Andy Dunks?

The man in the photograph, Andy Dunks, gave evidence at the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry this week. He works for Fujitsu. In the days when the Post Office wanted to prosecute Horizon users for cr…

www.postofficescandal.uk

and as if we're not already shocked if you've got a few minutes to waste this article by Nick Wallis too is just jaw dropping:

More Singh’d against than Singh-ing

There has been some rank incompetence on display from various Post Office witnesses over the course of this inquiry, but I think we’ll have to go some way to find a worse performance than thi…

www.postofficescandal.uk

 

[jcdenton08]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

It was a conspiracy in the quite literal sense. The Post Office and Hitachi higher ups conspired to cover up their findings that the data was faulty. They knowingly conspired to avoid financial punishment for prior mistakes in their processes and due diligence. It was entirely intentional and ruined hundreds of lives of innocent people, their families, children and British businesses.

As I said earlier in the thread, this is a massive scandal and outrage with absolutely zero defence.

I want lengthy prison sentences for those behind the conspiracy and financial compensation for everybody affected by this enormous miscarriage of justice.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Nigel Farage doing his usual job of sowing poison by deliberately lying about prosecutions.



PS, if anyone isn't aware, the Post Office is nothing to do with the CPS, but has prosecuted its own since it started in 1660.

 

[Brovion]

More 'sloping shoulders': Ed Davey, postal affairs minister from 2010 to 2012, is blaming his officials! That's a bit like driving over a zebra crossing and saying "But google maps told me to go straight ahead!" It never dawned on him apparently to think for himself and to wonder if they, y'know, might just be parroting an official line?

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Wanted at a Post Office near you.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

…and I a very crass statement, Vince cable on radio 4 said ( paraphrasing) of course there were some fraudulent transactions committed by postmasters, but that wasn’t reported on in the latest programmes and lay off Ed Davey! Politicians circling around each other to cover their arses!

also Adam crozier not mentioned in all of this ITV investigation although he was CEO of the post office 2003 to 10 but of course he was ITV chair from 2010 to 17. smacks a bit of protecting their own!

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

This will hopefully haunt Ed Davey come election time.

I don't think he'll be around come Election time.

 

[A1X]

Nigel Farage doing his usual job of sowing poison by deliberately lying about prosecutions.



PS, if anyone isn't aware, the Post Office is nothing to do with the CPS, but has prosecuted its own since it started in 1660.

"He should account for all these things in his past" is an interesting position for Nigel Farage of all people to take...

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I think the Post Office investigators actually believed that the Horizon system was correct, in which case you can understand them pursuing each case. Most PO staff would have, I suspect only a very few knew the real facts. Someone, somewhere, KNEW the real issue, it is that person(s) that needs to be uncovered and feel the full force of the law.

This I agree with. My friend who I posted about earlier in this thread, as an auditor his role was to train and audit. If they found something they reported it. As he said to me, and gave examples where often it was obvious that looking at some businesses, on finding discrepancies it was obvious where the money was going. As he rightly says there are these people that are not only going to get off they may now get compensation for nicking the cash. That is another kick in the guts of those wrongly accused. He was fed the same bullshit as the postmasters.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

…and I a very crass statement, Vince cable on radio 4 said ( paraphrasing) of course there were some fraudulent transactions committed by postmasters, but that wasn’t reported on in the latest programmes and lay off Ed Davey! Politicians circling around each other to cover their arses!

also Adam crozier not mentioned in all of this ITV investigation although he was CEO of the post office 2003 to 10 but of course he was ITV chair from 2010 to 17. smacks a bit of protecting their own!

Yeah, but what/who are they protecting? Crozier left there seven years ago.

 

[Flounce]

I don’t know about removing a CBE, I’d throw the bugger in jail for gross dereliction of duty and causing death to some of the victims.

But then I’d chuck the CEOs of water companies who allow sewage ro be pumped into lakes, rivers and the sea in there too

Bastards all of them

 

[Eeyore]

Nigel Farage doing his usual job of sowing poison by deliberately lying about prosecutions.



PS, if anyone isn't aware, the Post Office is nothing to do with the CPS, but has prosecuted its own since it started in 1660.

On this rare occasion, despite his usual toxic intent, Farage is correct. The DPP can intervene in private prosecutions if it deems there to be any problems with them.

No stone should be spared here. The DPP does need to be asked about what it knew.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

On this rare occasion, despite his usual toxic intent, Farage is correct. The DPP can intervene in private prosecutions if it deems there to be any problems with them.

No stone should be spared here. The DPP does need to be asked about what it knew.

No, he isn’t. A complaint has to be made for the CPS to intervene, and has been confirmed by Nazir Afzal, the Chief Crown Prosecutor for the NW.
They have now opened investigations since February 2020. There are some in ministerial positions such as Lib Dem Ed Davey who refused to meet the sub postmasters.