[News] Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed

[highflyer]

As usual there are no oligarchs or others from the 0,1% investigated in this.. just a bunch of golfers, the odd politicians, middle-bosses at big companies and big bosses at medium companies. Its nothing that is going to change anything, just a list of people you can say "shame on you" to.

Don't think that's quite true (apart from maybe the bit about 'nothing that is going to change anything')

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...ndora-papers-secrets-of-world-leaders-exposed

The meta-story here is that those that make the rules (and more to come on those that pay those that make the rules - eg big finance) are also those benefiting from the rules.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

A particularly annoying day for those of us who work in financial crime.

Looks like some awkward questions for some of our HNW client base this week


Sent from my very expensive gated community

 

[A1X]

But remember lads (and lasses), we mustn't tax the rich else they'll off-shore all their money...

 

[dadams2k11]

It could be argued that politicians like Blair and Cameron made a considerable salary sacrifice to be in politics. Politicians get it in the neck all the time but their pay is nothing like that in the private sector. I’m also not sure that Blair is corrupt. Irritating certainly but not corrupt.

You are Tony Blair and I claim my £5.

Every leader is corrupt. They do not have their people's best interest at heart, only lining their bank accounts.

 

[Machiavelli]

FYI.

HMRC have been compiling detailed analysis of the tax gap for 16 years, as a proportion of the theoretical total tax take if every person and entity paid their true liabilities. This is comprehensive, it covers every type of tax payer, every type of tax and duty, and evasion, fraud, ‘mistake’, simply failure to pay, avoidance, ‘open to legal interpretation’ such as schemes used by celebs, hidden economy and criminal attacks.

View attachment 141029

Despite ill informed hearsay, the gap’s steadily falling. I know through my work that HMRC now have savvy teams targeting the right people and businesses. Electronic filing has really helped.

Can you send a link to this or, failing that, the file's title so I can have a look please (the link in your original email doesn't work for me, at the very least).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You are Tony Blair and I claim my £5.

Every leader is corrupt. They do not have their people's best interest at heart, only lining their bank accounts.

Why Tony Blair? He also mentioned Cameron.

You are a one-eyed right winger and I claim my five Euros.

 

[Weststander]

Can you send a link to this or, failing that, the file's title so I can have a look please (the link in your original email doesn't work for me, at the very least).

Will do, it seems now blocked by the nsc administrator. Just need to find it again!

As an accountant, I steadily see lots of objective tax gap data like this. Personally wanting it tackled from the tax fraudulent billionaire, tax avoiding celeb, down to the tax fraudster small business, the figures over time have been heartening imo.

 

[Weststander]

[MENTION=28490]Machiavelli[/MENTION] this was only just released and is comprehensive.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps/measuring-tax-gaps-2021-edition-tax-gap-estimates-for-2019-to-2020

Anecdotally, in recent years I’ve seen the work of new HMRC teams targeting eg Net High Worth individuals, staffed by intelligent officers who know how to unravel and connect complex tax affairs.

 

[Weststander]

Why Tony Blair? He also mentioned Cameron.

You are a one-eyed right winger and I claim my five Euros.

Think about it, Bliar invaded Iraq just to feather Cherie and his nest with oil monies, all run through tax havens, then reinvested in £b’s of property in central London. You know it makes complete sense.

 

[Brighton & Love]

Think about it, Bliar invaded Iraq just to feather Cherie and his nest with oil monies, all run through tax havens, then reinvested in £b’s of property in central London. You know it makes complete sense.

I'm presuming you found this out yourself? If so, well done.

 

[dadams2k11]

Why Tony Blair? He also mentioned Cameron.

You are a one-eyed right winger and I claim my five Euros.

I have two eyes and I'm not right or left-wing. I am more of an arse and tit man.

If you read the quote again Harry, he states he doesn't think BLAIR is corrupt, nothing about Cameron.

"I’m also not sure that Blair is corrupt. Irritating certainly but not corrupt."

But you carry on.

You are Cameron and I claim my £5.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have two eyes and I'm not right or left-wing. I am more of an arse and tit man.

If you read the quote again Harry, he states he doesn't think BLAIR is corrupt, nothing about Cameron.

"I’m also not sure that Blair is corrupt. Irritating certainly but not corrupt."

But you carry on.

You are Cameron and I claim my £5.

I sometimes get the wrong end of the stick.

Edit: my point was he mentioned Blair and Cameron and you mentioned only Cameron. So I was right after all. Sort of.

 

[dadams2k11]

[emoji38]ol: [emoji106]

I sometimes get the wrong end of the stick.

Edit: my point was he mentioned Blair and Cameron and you mentioned only Cameron. So I was right after all. Sort of.

Oh Harry.

I mention Blair.

You mentioned Cameron.

He mentioned both.

It's been a long day, let's agree they both fu8ked up the country in their own way.

Have a good evening sir. [emoji106]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Oh Harry.

I mention Blair.

You mentioned Cameron.

He mentioned both.

It's been a long day, let's agree they both fu8ked up the country in their own way.

Have a good evening sir. [emoji106]

No worries. You too

 

[Machiavelli]

[MENTION=28490]Machiavelli[/MENTION] this was only just released and is comprehensive.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps/measuring-tax-gaps-2021-edition-tax-gap-estimates-for-2019-to-2020

Anecdotally, in recent years I’ve seen the work of new HMRC teams targeting eg Net High Worth individuals, staffed by intelligent officers who know how to unravel and connect complex tax affairs.

There's some divergence from this latest report from a civil society organisation. I was surprised by, but not dismissive of, the HMRC calculations of £35bn. This is because I've been following the Tax Justice Network for a while.
There is a difference in what data they use for their calculations, which you're better positioned than I to ascertain. My surprise was informed as much by the role of the City of London and all the Treasure Islands that are connected to it, and their facilitation of tax abuse and secrecy surrounding tax.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-to-tax-abuse-by-firms-and-super-rich-in-2021

 

[sydney]

Don't think that's quite true (apart from maybe the bit about 'nothing that is going to change anything')

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...ndora-papers-secrets-of-world-leaders-exposed

The meta-story here is that those that make the rules (and more to come on those that pay those that make the rules - eg big finance) are also those benefiting from the rules.

in a big way ....we are getting rinsed by these ****ers , i would say just about every p.m and cabinet minister has their nose in the trough to some degree , it's how they stay in power , buying each other of with the public's money .

 

[B-right-on]

in a big way ....we are getting rinsed by these ****ers , i would say just about every p.m and cabinet minister has their nose in the trough to some degree , it's how they stay in power , buying each other of with the public's money .

And by doing 'special favours' to mates who give them free holidays and a nice cushy consultant position when they eventually get the boot.

 

[sydney]

And by doing 'special favours' to mates who give them free holidays and a nice cushy consultant position when they eventually get the boot.

our federal treasurer has just been outed for giving network 7 over 200 million in jobkeeper payments , the CEO of network 7 was the best man at his wedding 3 years ago ....it's that blatant it's almost unbelievable. In a time of "austerity" our current liberal govt. is looking at spending 460 million on a new war memorial , the CEO of the war memorial foundation is kerry stokes , owner of network 7 and the father of the CEO........

 

[Weststander]

There's some divergence from this latest report from a civil society organisation. I was surprised by, but not dismissive of, the HMRC calculations of £35bn. This is because I've been following the Tax Justice Network for a while.
There is a difference in what data they use for their calculations, which you're better positioned than I to ascertain. My surprise was informed as much by the role of the City of London and all the Treasure Islands that are connected to it, and their facilitation of tax abuse and secrecy surrounding tax.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-to-tax-abuse-by-firms-and-super-rich-in-2021

Hi, I probably know very little more than you, just some professional experience/understanding of the UK’s tax system. Plus, like you, a personal inquisitiveness into and loathing of tax evasion and immoral tax avoidance.

I think the disparity you touch on is that the HMRC are tasked with tax collection under the UK’s legal framework. They cannot go beyond what’s set by parliament and the courts. If they attempted to, tax avoiders would win at the drop of a hat at tax tribunals and courts. Probably no different to other western systems.

The TJN and Guardian take this much further by estimating all evasion and immoral avoidance.

[To clarify definitions for Tax Avoidance, I add immoral, because a load of tax avoidance is legitimate and acceptable. For example, if you pay £5k extra in your tax plan, you receive a reduced tax bill. A business that decides to spend £1m on plant just before its year-end reduces its ensuing tax bill on profits. These are examples of legit tax avoidance/planning].

Digressing, tax evasion is very much NOT an English-speaking preserve. Obvious really, but this all became clear when the German authorities obtained secret papers from Switzerland and Liechtenstein in 2008. Vast numbers of Germans proved to be tax fraudsters, on an industrial scale. The Panama Papers proved the same, tax fraudsters live everywhere.

And now this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58984813
Tax cheats stealing £127b from continental governments.

So returning to your post, yes I agree the £359b is quite feasible. I think what they’re saying is that the City of London has enabled 40% of that global total, it isn’t that the loss to the UK exchequer is that sum.

I’m guessing we think along the same lines on the overall subject. If only we could set the UK and global rules and systems!

 

[beorhthelm]

The TJN and Guardian take this much further by estimating all evasion and immoral avoidance.

[To clarify definitions for Tax Avoidance, I add immoral, because a load of tax avoidance is legitimate and acceptable. For example, if you pay £5k extra in your tax plan, you receive a reduced tax bill. A business that decides to spend £1m on plant just before its year-end reduces its ensuing tax bill on profits. These are examples of legit tax avoidance/planning].

i recall TJN include many legitimate tax planning practices, black market trade and a dollop of what they think should be taxed in calculating the tax gap. i expect the same is true evaluating the avoidance due to offshore holdings. something the Guardian would know about, being the benficaries of the practice.