Nigel Farage MEP v Russell Brand - Question Time BBC1 22:35 *** Official Match Thread ***

[Soulman]

It was much as expected really. Brand was a load of hot air with absolutely no solutions to all he moans about, being patronising to women ( pays their pensions then luv ), calling everyone " mate " playing to the crowd and Brand followers most of whom would clap and cheer if he farted in a milk bottle and being an absolute tosspot whilst having no answer to any serious question put to him " like why not stand yourself ? " the nutter in the crowd actually did him a disservice as she associated herself with him which Farage picked up on, Farage said nothing great or terrible either, kept his cool and just laughed off Brand's provocations which was the best reaction, the 2 mp's were inconsequential and the lady journalist made the lot of them look like clowns, lady journalist 9, farage 7, labour mp 5, tory mp 4, brand 1

A very good sensible post. On the money.

 

[tinycowboy]

Cameron's "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" line set the agenda and played totally into Farage's hands. Conceited, lazy, politcs that showed awful judgement. It's biting him in the arse now.

Politics in general is to blame for the popularity of UKIP currently. Both Milliband and Cameron are scared of the debate with him and I'm really not sure why, it's not like Farage is coming up with anything new.

The rise of an "alternative" like UKIP tellls you all you need to know about the relationship that the established parties have with the electorate.

Exactly - the choice of the main three parties is no choice at all - all of them either did or would have let what has happened in the past 14 years happen - ie allowing elements of regressive tax/no tax at all to flourish, bailing out banks with no prosecutions, and then watching as bonus levels creep back up to similar levels whilst those in the middle or at the bottom of society feel all the pain. It's no wonder people are jaded and are looking either to the left or the right.

 

[Tooting Gull]

The thing is so does Farage (live in nice middle class area) yet people still lap up everything he says. It stems from a base of ignorance though. Times aren't tough because of immigration, people not being able to find work isn't a result of immigration. There are actually more jobs than there are people in this country but the people are either unskilled or lack experience. You fight the anti-immigration, "I want my country back" brigade with facts about immigration and the benefits it does to the economy etc and how isn't a big drain on resources as they perceive it to be and they don't want to know. And THAT is when the word "racist" starts flying around. When people are so entrenched in this view that foreign = bad and refuse to see it from any other point of view.

Yes he does..but he's not seen as a hypocrite, rightly or wrongly. And I agree with you that times are not tough because of immigrants, not at all. I'd actually be with Brand on the idea that the wealthy elite are being allowed to keep more and more of the money and social mobility is going backwards, it is a massive concern for jobs, education, everything. I hope Brand is getting the message across where it matters, but I'm not sure, he does let himself down. He would argue no doubt that the media, controlled by very rich people, are smearing him to negate his message and maintain the status quo, and there's probably something in that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But its not pedantic to pick up on you're choice of word though is it, because people will see the word NO, hear the word NO, and then believe that is what UKIP stand for and its wrong.

I didn't use the word NO. I clearly wasn't implying that either as I was asking why Farage doesn't expand on his immigration policy and I wouldn't be asking that if I thought the policy was no immigration. But you already know that.

 

[spring hall convert]

Probably indicative of the fact that in their desperation to swell the number of women in parliament and in government the two main parties promote some ladies well beyond their abilities.

I think it was more some canny politiking as it goes. My suspicion is that the parties saw a doomsday scenario of Brand and Farage ganging up on the "mainstream" politicans. Therefore, we got 2 rising but not well known faces and most importantly they were female. No one wants to see a man harangue a woman live on National TV.

 

[Hastings gull]

The thing is so does Farage (live in nice middle class area) yet people still lap up everything he says. It stems from a base of ignorance though. Times aren't tough because of immigration, people not being able to find work isn't a result of immigration. There are actually more jobs than there are people in this country but the people are either unskilled or lack experience. You fight the anti-immigration, "I want my country back" brigade with facts about immigration and the benefits it does to the economy etc and how isn't a big drain on resources as they perceive it to be and they don't want to know. And THAT is when the word "racist" starts flying around. When people are so entrenched in this view that foreign = bad and refuse to see it from any other point of view.

I take your point that the economic crisis was not caused by immigration as such, though the stresses and strains on schools and hospitals in certain areas will be made worse if a struggling economy is unable to provide extra resources to combat a surge in population. I am sure that there are many cases where british folk just don't want to work for low wages and thus immigrants fill the vacuum, but on the other hand, I would be most reluctant to come to the conclusion that someone's inability to get a job isn't due to immigration. How can you be in a position to make such a claim? Many immigrants who come here, find employment, and work hard do undoubtedly contribute economically but the chances are that they will have paid into the NHS for a shorter period of time, yet lay the same claim to its facilities. I am not for one moment saying that they should not, just that this would thus put stress on the system's finances. As for your claim that people "don't want to know" , this is a very sweeping statement and, again, you can not possibly be in a position to make such a claim. The sweeping nature of your claims make me think, that you too would be as reluctant to see others' views.

 

[Gwylan]

EU countries aren't going to suddenly kick out Brits living there and paying taxes just because we leave the EU.

That's rather dependent on the goodwill of other nations though. Spain tolerates thousands of British pensioners, putting a strain on its health service as it has no choice. If we left the EU, they could kick them out ... or introduce a non-resident tax that would mean they left.

I agree that countries would be mad to kick out people who are working and contributing taxes - but the bulk of EU workers in this country do that. If we don't kick them out and let them stay (and UKIP is very vague on this) then that's not reducing over-crowding either (and that was the specific question that was asked last night)

 

[5mins-from-amex]

I didn't use the word NO. I clearly wasn't implying that either as I was asking why Farage doesn't expand on his immigration policy and I wouldn't be asking that if I thought the policy was no immigration. But you already know that.

Ok fair point, but to say '' Farage just wants to stop immigration '' still sends the wrong message to people less informed and up to date on the subject. agree?

 

[Dub-67]

Pound Shop Enoch Powell

 

[Westdene Seagull]

That's rather dependent on the goodwill of other nations though. Spain tolerates thousands of British pensioners, putting a strain on its health service as it has no choice. If we left the EU, they could kick them out ... or introduce a non-resident tax that would mean they left.

I agree that countries would be mad to kick out people who are working and contributing taxes - but the bulk of EU workers in this country do that. If we don't kick them out and let them stay (and UKIP is very vague on this) then that's not reducing over-crowding either (and that was the specific question that was asked last night)

Brits living abroad are local tax payers regardless of being retired or not. In fact Spain benefits from pensioners spending their UK issued pensions in Spain.

UKIP has stated people would not be thrown out of the UK. Controlled immigration for those applying in the future will be the way forwards.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I take your point that the economic crisis was not caused by immigration as such, though the stresses and strains on schools and hospitals in certain areas will be made worse if a struggling economy is unable to provide extra resources to combat a surge in population. I am sure that there are many cases where british folk just don't want to work for low wages and thus immigrants fill the vacuum, but on the other hand, I would be most reluctant to come to the conclusion that someone's inability to get a job isn't due to immigration. How can you be in a position to make such a claim? Many immigrants who come here, find employment, and work hard do undoubtedly contribute economically but the chances are that they will have paid into the NHS for a shorter period of time, yet lay the same claim to its facilities. I am not for one moment saying that they should not, just that this would thus put stress on the system's finances. As for your claim that people "don't want to know" , this is a very sweeping statement and, again, you can not possibly be in a position to make such a claim. The sweeping nature of your claims make me think, that you too would be as reluctant to see others' views.

This post is spot on, it's exactly the point people are trying to make. House prices are going through the roof, yet we are living a low wage economy where not enough money is going back to the government, and what happens if we have another housing crash and another recession. Who is going to pay out the benefits?

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

pound shop enoch powell

That pathetic comment from Brand probably got Farage thousands of new votes, you see whether people like it or not UKIP are gaining massive support and to have their vote disdained and trashed only serves to make his followers and new ones more determined, something the Tories and Labour misread badly, something Brand does not have the intelligence to realise whilst playing to the gallery, his fans and 9m twitter followers

 

[sahel]

I take your point that the economic crisis was not caused by immigration as such, though the stresses and strains on schools and hospitals in certain areas will be made worse if a struggling economy is unable to provide extra resources to combat a surge in population. I am sure that there are many cases where british folk just don't want to work for low wages and thus immigrants fill the vacuum, but on the other hand, I would be most reluctant to come to the conclusion that someone's inability to get a job isn't due to immigration. How can you be in a position to make such a claim? Many immigrants who come here, find employment, and work hard do undoubtedly contribute economically but the chances are that they will have paid into the NHS for a shorter period of time, yet lay the same claim to its facilities. I am not for one moment saying that they should not, just that this would thus put stress on the system's finances. As for your claim that people "don't want to know" , this is a very sweeping statement and, again, you can not possibly be in a position to make such a claim. The sweeping nature of your claims make me think, that you too would be as reluctant to see others' views.

I thought the best points made last night were

1. Why do we go on and on about immigration. Why weren't we discussing tax evasion by individuals and companies which is much more important and salient

2. It is not immigrants that cause stresses and strains in housing education etc. It is lack of investment which is why point 1 was so relevant.

We are a low tax country and even then that tax is massively evaded. That is why we have poor public services and inadequate housing - it is not immigration - that is just an excuse and an easy target for populists like Farage

 

[Dub-67]

That pathetic comment from Brand probably got Farage thousands of new votes, you see whether people like it or not UKIP are gaining massive support and to have their vote disdained and trashed only serves to make his followers and new ones more determined, something the Tories and Labour misread badly, something Brand does not have the intelligence to realise whilst playing to the gallery, his fans and 9m twitter followers

Far from it... may have been the most decisive blow landed on Farage for years..

 

[5mins-from-amex]

I thought the best points made last night were

1. Why do we go on and on about immigration. Why weren't we discussing tax evasion by individuals and companies which is much more important and salient

2. It is not immigrants that cause stresses and strains in housing education etc. It is lack of investment which is why point 1 was so relevant.

We are a low tax country and even then that tax is massively evaded. That is why we have poor public services and inadequate housing - it is not immigration - that is just an excuse and an easy target for populists like Farage

 

[Dub-67]

He ain't Del Boy. He ain't Arthur Daley. He is a pound shop Enoch Powell

 

[JCL666]

That pathetic comment from Brand probably got Farage thousands of new votes, you see whether people like it or not UKIP are gaining massive support and to have their vote disdained and trashed only serves to make his followers and new ones more determined, something the Tories and Labour misread badly, something Brand does not have the intelligence to realise whilst playing to the gallery, his fans and 9m twitter followers

Like it or not, that comment will haunt Farage.

There are a lot of moderate right wing people who support UKIP, but there are also a number of supporters who are not moderate. As the number of far right organisations, who ordinarily would be seen as abhorrent, align themselves with UKIP, it will be easer to caricature Farage and UKIP in this way.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Far from it... may have been the most decisive blow landed on Farage for years..

It is something a 5 year old would have thought up imo

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Far from it... may have been the most decisive blow landed on Farage for years..

Do you really believe that? some throw away comment from a two bob 'comedian' who advocates people not to vote.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Pound Shop Enoch Powell

It was an inspired assessment of a deeply worrying figure in British politics.