MOTD2, BBC One 22:30

[Stato]

Anyway back to MOTD2. Amongst all the chatting I picked up on one of DIon Dublins comments. He said "On paper the Man Utd players are better"

Would I take Maguire over Dunk? De Gea over Sanchez? Shaw over Solly (Yeah, I know he played on the right)? There's no question Webster and Moises are better than Mctominay and Martinez. There's no way i'd pick Fred over Alexis. On yesterday's evidence there is a case for Welbeck over Ronaldo.

Man for Man - at best - it is at best debatable if they are better players on paper. I don't accept Dion's wisdom that they are. We've beat them at their place, smashed them 4-0 at ours and were really unlucky not to get a point with 10 men last season. Anyone blindly backing Man Utd for their acca needs their head examined. They are a shadow of the 90s team. If it wasn't for the bias they get at their place, I'd be having the lot on us finishing above them this season.

He said that they were better on paper and this seems unarguable. They started with 11 current internationals, 9 of them from countries in the top ten of FIFA's world ranking. They had 415 caps between them. We had 8 internationals, with a total of 153 caps, but 105 of those belong to the four (probably) ex internationals: Dunk, Veltman, Lallana & Welbeck. Their starting eleven cost £392.28 million, ours cost £49.3 million. In Martinez, Maguire, Bruno, Fred and Sancho, they had five players whose individual transfer fee was more than what it cost to assemble our entire starting eleven. Transfermarkt valuations are generally quite a way off, but, if you accept that they are just as wrong for all, they offer a comparison: their first 11 - £391.5m, ours £113.4m. Our first substitution was then to bring on the, as yet uncapped by Ghana (Fifa WR 60) Tariq Lamptey, whilst they introduced a man who has a separate Wikipedia page for his acheivements in the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Cristiano_Ronaldo.

On paper, they are much, much better than us. Dublin called that right. The fact that, for the second time running, they were nowhere near as good as us on grass, is testament to the work done by the squad and coaches. Yes, United as an organisation is a mess that needs root and branch change and a lot of these players are struggling and more of them are just not what their new manager needs, but denying that they are better than our lot on paper actually underestimates the fantastic acheivement of our players, a group who are also, on average, paid a fraction of what their opponents are on.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

It feels like that, but we should note that this same group of United players, with dreadful management, poor morale and so on, still finished 6th in the league last season. So it's probably fair to say they are better than ours on paper

Yesterday was a classic example of why Man Utd get results. They should have had 10 men, debatably 9. We should have had a penalty, we had a tight offside that wasn't (fair enough they had one too). They had at least 2 big decisions go their way. Last year, Dunk getting sent off went their way. Despite all this, we still won, however, I am sure there will be hard luck stories from other teams that get robbed. For whatever reason - and it's been going on since I was a kid - the referee seems to always side with Utd at home. If the Caciedo foul and Welbeck push were the other way round, we'd have 10 players and they would have had a penalty.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

My only issue with the punditry was Dublin saying on paper the Man Utd players are better....

He's right.

On paper, when you look at the credentials, cost, international experience etc of the Utd players against us, then of course they are 'better'

They literally have arguably the best footballer of all time.

 

[JBizzle]

This thread has turned into "Brighton fans being precious" again hasn't it? Pointing out all the times people don't say how great we are whilst studiously ignoring all the times the same people say how great we are. Carragher is a case in point, at times in that first half we were very open and United did get some joy down our flanks. He also raved about how well organised we were as a units and said several times that we "always pick the right pass" and are "so well coached".

As if it really matters, most pundits think it should have been a pen, most pundits think McTominay should have been sent off, universally pundits think we were worth the win and were the better side. Oh, wait, they didn't say it enough? Hard times being a Brighton fan when the media only give us universal praise and not erect a statue of Graham Potter...

This was a fantastic win so why bother seeking out tiny perceived slights from people that, frankly, mean nothing to our club?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

He said that they were better on paper and this seems unarguable. They started with 11 current internationals, 9 of them from countries in the top ten of FIFA's world ranking. They had 415 caps between them. We had 8 internationals, with a total of 153 caps, but 105 of those belong to the four (probably) ex internationals: Dunk, Veltman, Lallana & Welbeck. Their starting eleven cost £392.28 million, ours cost £49.3 million. In Martinez, Maguire, Bruno, Fred and Sancho, they had five players whose individual transfer fee was more than what it cost to assemble our entire starting eleven. Transfermarkt valuations are generally quite a way off, but, if you accept that they are just as wrong for all, they offer a comparison: their first 11 - £391.5m, ours £113.4m. Our first substitution was then to bring on the, as yet uncapped by Ghana (Fifa WR 60) Tariq Lamptey, whilst they introduced a man who has a separate Wikipedia page for his acheivements in the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Cristiano_Ronaldo.

On paper, they are much, much better than us. Dublin called that right. The fact that, for the second time running, they were nowhere near as good as us on grass, is testament to the work done by the squad and coaches. Yes, United as an organisation is a mess that needs root and branch change and a lot of these players are struggling and more of them are just not what their new manager needs, but denying that they are better than our lot on paper actually underestimates the fantastic acheivement of our players, a group who are also, on average, paid a fraction of what their opponents are on.

I think we are arguing the same point from opposite ends. Man Utd's squads pay will dwarf our guys and will all know that we are relegation payers with a top 10 side. Maguire is a case in point. He is an £85 million defender but doesn't look it (he did at Leicester though where he was faultless). I'd have taken Leicester Maguire over Dunk but now? No chance. It's Dunk without hesitation. Caceido is good enough to be the best in his position in time and he is exactly the type of player Utd need in that position. Webster is good enough for England and would have got there with a bit of luck with injuries. Welbeck and Lallana have played at the top level and have been rejuvenated by whatever magic the medical team do. I argued last year there wasn't a team in the PL with better full backs (albeit Lamptey regressed a bit). We have some serious quality. Man Utd have a fair bit of overpaid dross. If they are better, they are not that much better and certainly not value for what they pay them.

Lastly, GP deserves a lot of credit. The MC saga last week was a perfect excuse for a "less than ideal build up" or whatever excuses sometimes get muttered by the Big Sam's of this world. To produce that performance given the previous week and no new signings deserves a hell of a lot of credit. We are the best run club in the country. Long may it continue.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yeah, I spotted that too. Was wondering if Martin Montoya had somehow come back from a loan deal we didn't realise he was on!

But I'm going with Mitoma and some dodgy predictive text system at the BBC

Mitoma and Montoya are similar and Undav and Andone are similar. No? You're right, it is rubbish from the Sky editor.

 

[Stato]

Mitoma and Montoya are similar and Undav and Andone are similar. No? You're right, it is rubbish from the Sky editor.

What we need is some old footage of Montoya and Andone playing for us, so that we can check whether they wore numbers 21 & 22:

Just something chosen at random that featured the two of them....
Any old game where both Montoya and Andone played for us....
It doesn't have to be anything in particular, just some kind of evidence of the two of them playing for us....

How about, completely at random, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_bdDpySKq0

Montoya did wear 22, but Andone was number 10.*



* - (Yes, I did remember this and didn't actually need to look, but these things have to be done scientifically. I would suggest that you review the evidence one more time, just to be absolutely certain)

 

[Bakero]

If anyone wants to hear some glowing praise for all things Albion, today's Totally Football pod is worth a listen.

Edit: Richard Jolly's piece in the Independent is also effusive in its praise.

 

[NS Herald]

I think you'll find that under GPs tutelage, all of the Utd players would improve massively but still might not get in our team!

Don't tempt fate!!

 

[Stato]

If anyone wants to hear some glowing praise for all things Albion, today's Totally Football pod is worth a listen.

Edit: Richard Jolly's piece in the Independent is also effusive in its praise.

Both The TFS and the Guardian's Football Weekly were good listening. The latter did actually say some stuff about us after being just too keen to put the boot into United to wait. Lars Sivertsen picked up on the contrast between us and United and how as a club, a lot of the things that we seem to be getting right are the things that United have most wrong. I also very much liked:

Max Rushden: - 'Richard asks - If Marco Arnautovic is the answer, what is the question?'

Lars Sivertsen:- 'Who is this Austrian man shouting at me for seemingly no reason?'

 

[Bakero]

Both The TFS and the Guardian's Football Weekly were good listening. The latter did actually say some stuff about us after being just too keen to put the boot into United to wait. Lars Sivertsen picked up on the contrast between us and United and how as a club, a lot of the things that we seem to be getting right are the things that United have most wrong. I also very much liked:

Max Rushden: - 'Richard asks - If Marco Arnautovic is the answer, what is the question?'

Lars Sivertsen:- 'Who is this Austrian man shouting at me for seemingly no reason?'

I find the Football Weekly lot a bit lacking in the research department. In their season preview they criticised our transfer dealings due to the fact that our only forward additions were Enciso and Adingra, overlooking both Mitoma and Undav. Rushden went on to state he had no idea about the USG connection when it was mentioned Adingra had been loaned to them.

 

[Dibdab]

This thread has turned into "Brighton fans being precious" again hasn't it? Pointing out all the times people don't say how great we are whilst studiously ignoring all the times the same people say how great we are. ?

Agree. It’s so tiresome, needy, and reeks of small club fan syndrome.

 

[We're the Stripes]

If anyone wants to hear some glowing praise for all things Albion, today's Totally Football pod is worth a listen.

James Richardson and Daniel Storey always make sure we're given due praise where merited.

 

[Stato]

I find the Football Weekly lot a bit lacking in the research department. In their season preview they criticised our transfer dealings due to the fact that our only forward additions were Enciso and Adingra, overlooking both Mitoma and Undav. Rushden went on to state he had no idea about the USG connection when it was mentioned Adingra had been loaned to them.

I'd tend to agree about their research. I noticed that a lot of previews ignored Mitoma and Undav, presumably because they were technically January signings returning from loans.

Despite the accepted ongoing narrative that 'Brighton just need a striker', few people noticed that we signed a striker who was fifth in goals & assists for all strikers in Europe's top ten leagues last season, behind only Mbappe, Lewandowski, Benzema and Salah: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sco...chtung=&spielerposition_id=&filter=0&yt0=Show

 

[Bakero]

I'd tend to agree about their research. I noticed that a lot of previews ignored Mitoma and Undav, presumably because they were technically January signings returning from loans.

Despite the accepted ongoing narrative that 'Brighton just need a striker', few people noticed that we signed a striker who was fifth in goals & assists for all strikers in Europe's top ten leagues last season, behind only Mbappe, Lewandowski, Benzema and Salah: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sco...chtung=&spielerposition_id=&filter=0&yt0=Show

Exactly. It seems they just get a list of summer signings and base their judgement off that. Par for the course for ex-players working as TV pundits but I expect more from a podcast.

 

[Jim in the West]

I find the Football Weekly lot a bit lacking in the research department. In their season preview they criticised our transfer dealings due to the fact that our only forward additions were Enciso and Adingra, overlooking both Mitoma and Undav. Rushden went on to state he had no idea about the USG connection when it was mentioned Adingra had been loaned to them.

I used to really enjoy Football Weekly, but less so nowadays. As you say, their "pundits" do seem rather lacking in knowledge of the non-Top 6. This will probably sound even more precious and needy, but last week's edition made a thing of Enciso being only 5' 6'' tall. I was slightly surprised as I hadn't noticed him being on the short side. Anyway, turns out he's 5' 8'', and slightly taller than Cucurella (if you want a comparison). Obviously two inches doesn't seem much, but....

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

This thread has turned into "Brighton fans being precious" again hasn't it? Pointing out all the times people don't say how great we are whilst studiously ignoring all the times the same people say how great we are. Carragher is a case in point, at times in that first half we were very open and United did get some joy down our flanks. He also raved about how well organised we were as a units and said several times that we "always pick the right pass" and are "so well coached".


As if it really matters, most pundits think it should have been a pen, most pundits think McTominay should have been sent off, universally pundits think we were worth the win and were the better side. Oh, wait, they didn't say it enough? Hard times being a Brighton fan when the media only give us universal praise and not erect a statue of Graham Potter...

This was a fantastic win so why bother seeking out tiny perceived slights from people that, frankly, mean nothing to our club?

You’re probably right!

But to be fair MOTD bigged us up first, then pointed out the Man Utd problems. Somebody even suggesting Dublin’s comment about them having better players than us equated to a “we should be beating teams like Brighton.” But if they were using their resources (players) as well as we use ours, they probably would beat us, or at least would have a better chance of so doing.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

You’re probably right!

But to be fair MOTD bigged us up first, then pointed out the Man Utd problems. Somebody even suggesting Dublin’s comment about them having better players than us equated to a “we should be beating teams like Brighton.” But if they were using their resources (players) as well as we use ours, they probably would beat us, or at least would have a better chance of so doing.

Nobody suggested that. Myself and [MENTION=7271]Postman Pat[/MENTION] were questioning the accepted wisdom that United have a better set of players then we do. It's certainly not as cut and dried as Dion makes out. Our defence is better visually and statistically. Who'd rather we had Mctominay in the middle? It's only up front where we'd take their players and who was the best forward on the pitch yesterday? Welbeck.

At the moment United are trying to buy Rabiot. A player Juventus would offload for free and whose wage is crippling them. They want to pay 18 million quid. They haven't got a clue what constitutes a decent signing. One thing I know is that I'd love to know what Tony's model says about it.

 

[Stat Brother]

Nobody suggested that. Myself and [MENTION=7271]Postman Pat[/MENTION] were questioning the accepted wisdom that United have a better set of players then we do. It's certainly not as cut and dried as Dion makes out. Our defence is better visually and statistically. Who'd rather we had Mctominay in the middle? It's only up front where we'd take their players and who was the best forward on the pitch yesterday? Welbeck.

At the moment United are trying to buy Rabiot. A player Juventus would offload for free and whose wage is crippling them. They want to pay 18 million quid. They haven't got a clue what constitutes a decent signing. One thing I know is that I'd love to know what Tony's model says about it.

I'll Eden a guess every once in a while theres a cumulative effect of decisions made in football that has Tony's Geek Squad wondering:-

'are you absolutely sure we are right?'

Then those decisions play out and there's much relief all round.


What is it about owning a football team that sends so many wealthy men (and nation states) batshit cra-cra?

 

[GT49er]

This thread has turned into "Brighton fans being precious" again hasn't it? Pointing out all the times people don't say how great we are whilst studiously ignoring all the times the same people say how great we are. Carragher is a case in point, at times in that first half we were very open and United did get some joy down our flanks. He also raved about how well organised we were as a units and said several times that we "always pick the right pass" and are "so well coached".

As if it really matters, most pundits think it should have been a pen, most pundits think McTominay should have been sent off, universally pundits think we were worth the win and were the better side. Oh, wait, they didn't say it enough? Hard times being a Brighton fan when the media only give us universal praise and not erect a statue of Graham Potter...

This was a fantastic win so why bother seeking out tiny perceived slights from people that, frankly, mean nothing to our club?

I think you'll find that to many people it is a 'discussion about football' thread, more specifically about yesterday's match against ManU at Old Trafford - and is very much enjoyed. If you don't enjoy it, why so huffy, and frankly dismissive of people who do?

There are other threads ........................