Malaysian airline crash

[somerset]

No it's not , most of the people there are Russian speaking Ukrainians .

I would hazard a guess that eyebrows would be raised if the same thing happened in Benidorm where of course the majority speak the Queen's english.....

 

[martyn20]

No it's not , most of the people there are Russian speaking Ukrainians .

Trained and armed by Russia, if not actually Russian forces

 

[Czechmate]

The Ukrainians weren't exactly open and honest either when they shot down Russia's Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 back in 2001.

I would guess that, like myself, most had entirely forgotten about that incident despite its relevancy to the recent tragedy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hiding-missile-strike-that-destroyed-jet.html

Crikey Creaky I didn't know that

 

[Czechmate]

I see on the 24 hour BBC news (which I was amazed about) that the right wingers in the Ukrainian parliament were starting a punch up today in parliament !

 

[Czechmate]

I would hazard a guess that eyebrows would be raised if the same thing happened in Benidorm where of course the majority speak the Queen's english.....

Not now , it's been taken over by the Chinese !

 

[somerset]

Crikey Creaky I didn't know that

Well, to put some bones on it, the missile misfired and flew 150 miles off course, but failed to self destruct as it should have. Within 2 days the main site was being examined, and within 2 years Ukraine paid $200k for each death. In fact the initial delay was partially attributed to the Russians ( Putin) categorically saying it must have been Chechen terrorists and muddying the waters somewhat.

 

[dingodan]

I see on the 24 hour BBC news (which I was amazed about) that the right wingers in the Ukrainian parliament were starting a punch up today in parliament !

"Under the new decree extra reserves and men under 50 will now be called up to help with the “anti-terrorist operation” on the border...

...Following the decision, footage shows politicians from Ukraine’s nationalist parties and members of the Party of Regions, formerly run by president Viktor Yanukovich, pushing and shoving one another in disagreement over the decree.

...In the video we see Nikolai Levchenko, an MP for Party of Regions, react to the vote by telling parliament that the Ukrainian army has been killing people. His microphone is then turned off by speaker Alexander Tyrchinov and he is pushed off the stand by one of the opposition members."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html

 

[peterward]

Do you have a source for that, because it's also being reported that they only arrived yesterday.

""Twelve aviation experts from Malaysia have safely arrived in Donetsk," Andrey Kavtaradze, a member of the DNR Security Council, said on Monday."

http://rt.com/news/174444-malaysian-experts-ukraine-crash/

I'm happy to take a look at another source which says something else?

Dingodan, as someone who has been married a Russian speaking lady from Donetsk, and knows the Ukrainian crisis from both the russian and ukrainian sides, in very intimate details (father in law was officer in soviet army), please don't quote russia today (rt) articles as proof of anything, its the leading protaganist of the 100% kremlin controlled state media in spreading lies and disinformation, its designed to deliberately misinform misinformed westerners, a fair few western journos have resigned on air in protest at their blatant lies spun as truth, their comments section is populated with professional paid pro kremlin bloggers........ really its north korea style propagnada dressed as news, headed up by Dmitry Kiselyov (read up on him!)


if you want objective English news on Ukraine or the crisis there, plus links to multiple free press articles from global publications may i suggest the independent, and objective kyivpost http://www.kyivpost.com/

 

[dingodan]

Dingodan, as someone who has been married a Russian speaking lady from Donetsk, and knows the Ukrainian crisis from both the russian and ukrainian sides, in very intimate details (father in law was officer in soviet army), please don't quote russia today (rt) articles as proof of anything, its the leading protaganist of the 100% kremlin controlled state media in spreading lies and disinformation, its designed to deliberately misinform misinformed westerners, a fair few western journos have resigned on air in protest at their blatant lies spun as truth, their comments section is populated with professional paid pro kremlin bloggers........ really its north korea style propagnada dressed as news, headed up by Dmitry Kiselyov (read up on him!)

if you want objective English news on Ukraine or the crisis there, plus links to multiple free press articles from global publications may i suggest the independent, and objective kyivpost http://www.kyivpost.com/

I posted the article to RT with the caveat that I wanted to see an article which said something different, because I don't trust RT. Or to be precise, I trust RT like I trust Western news media.

Note that I don't trust the Western media but my posts are riddled with sources from them too, because the fact that they lie, doesn't mean everything that they say is a lie. That's why you have to be discerning.

 

[sparkie]

It is surprising to see how little changes in history. Stalin had his useful idiots in the West, and Putin has his own too.

It never ceases to amaze me how easily people fall for Russian propaganda lies.

Well said. It is impossible to reason with putin's zombies. Sadly his brainwashing state propaganda agencies, and professional internet trolls, are too good at what they do.

 

[Creaky]

Well, to put some bones on it, the missile misfired and flew 150 miles off course, but failed to self destruct as it should have. Within 2 days the main site was being examined, and within 2 years Ukraine paid $200k for each death. In fact the initial delay was partially attributed to the Russians ( Putin) categorically saying it must have been Chechen terrorists and muddying the waters somewhat.

And yet for more than a week the Ukrainians continued to deny they were responsible for shooting down the aircraft - all very familiar.

In the case of the shooting down of the Iranian airliner by the US the Pentagon initially denied responsibility and when they did 'bent the truth' over the circumstances.

Russia initially denied shooting down the Korean aircraft,.

About the only time a military force has immediately admitted the 'accidental' shooting down of a civilian aircraft was in the case of Israel shooting down of Libyan Airlines Flight 114.

None of this is to support the Separatist's prevarication over the current incident but rather to point out that nobody should be surprised they are!

 

[peterward]

Trained and armed by Russia, if not actually Russian forces

The so called Donestk and lughansk people republic consists of professional russian soldiers (without insignias) paid russian mercenaries like the Chechen Vostok battalian, The rebels military commander is Igor Strelkov (Girkin) who is a Russian Military intelligence officer and who was in charge in Crimea earlier in the year, he bragged on VK (russian facebook) he's shot down a ukrainin aircraft moments after MH17 was downed only to delete it when they realised the truth, a Russian officer....... the So called Governor of of the DNR Pavel Gubarev is a Russian neo nazi, who worked as a Father christmas impersonator for kids until the russian assault on ukraines sovereignty, there are quite a few paid locals, mainly bums and drunks but the vast majority are pro russian soldiers and Russian citizens (Putins tourists), not the local ukrainians who want peace and this madness to stop.........

This is what Putin does to bully countries that express a desire for a different path than to be a subservient puppet state of Moscow, what he did in Georgia/Abkhazia region when Georgia wanted to join Nato what he is doing in Trans dnistria region/Maldova.... invade covertly using russian troops without insignia and work through puppet proxies, cause huge chaos to keep a region of a country in a perpetual frozen conflict.... the reason is that NATO will not accept membership of any country with land disputes So Putin engineers them.

In the case of Ukraine, my ukrainian family and friends all think the same, the chaos is Moscow created to prevent Ukraine from moving westward..... and a Successful Ukraine that threw out its former post soviet dictator, if allowed to move westward, reform, and sees upward growth for its citizens...... well that is the single biggest threat and fear of Putins regime and they are determined to keep ukraine, weak, broken and divided, a successful ukraine is a big threat to Putin's kleptocracy

 

[martyn20]

The so called Donestk and lughansk people republic consists of professional russian soldiers (without insignias) paid russian mercenaries like the Chechen Vostok battalian, its military commander is Igor Strelkov (Girkin) who is a Russian Military intelligence officer and who was in charge in Crimea earlier in the year....... the So called Governor of of the DNR Pavel Gubarev is a Russian neo nazi, who worked as a Father christmas impersonator for kids until the russian assault on ukraines sovereignty, there are quite a few paid locals, mainly bums and drunks but the vast majority are pro russian soldiers and Russian citizens (Putins tourists), not the local ukrainians who want peace and this madness to stop.........

This is Putin does to bully countries that express a desire for a different path than to be a subservient puppet state of Moscow, what he did in Georgia/Abkhazia region when Georgia wanted to join Nato what he is doing in Trans dnistria region/Maldova.... invade covertly using russian troops without insignia and work through puppet proxies, cause huge chaos to keep a region of a country in a perpetual frozen conflict.... the reason is that NATO will not accept membership of any country with land disputes So Putin engineers them.

In the case of Ukraine, my ukrainian family and friends all think the same, the chaos is Moscow created to prevent Ukraine from moving westward..... and a Successful Ukraine that threw out its former post soviet dictator, if allowed to move westward, reform, and sees upward growth for its citizens...... well that is the single biggest threat and fear of Putins regime and they are determined to keep ukraine, weak, broken and divided, a successful ukraine is a big threat to Putin's kleptocracy

Very good post, thanks for all that information

 

[sparkie]

The so called Donestk and lughansk people republic consists of professional russian soldiers (without insignias) paid russian mercenaries like the Chechen Vostok battalian, The rebels military commander is Igor Strelkov (Girkin) who is a Russian Military intelligence officer and who was in charge in Crimea earlier in the year, he bragged on VK (russian facebook) he's shot down a ukrainin aircraft moments after MH17 was downed only to delete it when they realised the truth, a Russian officer....... the So called Governor of of the DNR Pavel Gubarev is a Russian neo nazi, who worked as a Father christmas impersonator for kids until the russian assault on ukraines sovereignty, there are quite a few paid locals, mainly bums and drunks but the vast majority are pro russian soldiers and Russian citizens (Putins tourists), not the local ukrainians who want peace and this madness to stop.........

This is what Putin does to bully countries that express a desire for a different path than to be a subservient puppet state of Moscow, what he did in Georgia/Abkhazia region when Georgia wanted to join Nato what he is doing in Trans dnistria region/Maldova.... invade covertly using russian troops without insignia and work through puppet proxies, cause huge chaos to keep a region of a country in a perpetual frozen conflict.... the reason is that NATO will not accept membership of any country with land disputes So Putin engineers them.

In the case of Ukraine, my ukrainian family and friends all think the same, the chaos is Moscow created to prevent Ukraine from moving westward..... and a Successful Ukraine that threw out its former post soviet dictator, if allowed to move westward, reform, and sees upward growth for its citizens...... well that is the single biggest threat and fear of Putins regime and they are determined to keep ukraine, weak, broken and divided, a successful ukraine is a big threat to Putin's kleptocracy

This is the sad reality, very well written. The exact same as I am hearing from those in Ukraine.

Putin's biggest fear is a Ukraine free of state corruption, with rising living standards just across the border from his own corrupt autocracy. The last thing he needs is his own citizens getting ideas about change.

 

[peterward]

Putin's biggest fear is a Ukraine free of state corruption, with rising living standards just across the border from his own corrupt autocracy. The last thing he needs is his own citizens getting ideas about change.

yep in a nutshell

 

[Creaky]

This is the sad reality, very well written. The exact same as I am hearing from those in Ukraine.

Putin's biggest fear is a Ukraine free of state corruption, with rising living standards just across the border from his own corrupt autocracy. The last thing he needs is his own citizens getting ideas about change.

Really - I would have thought that a bigger fear would be the possibility of Ukraine joining Nato which would leave just Belarus alone on its Western border as a non-member. Belarus in turn would be surrounded by NATO countries were the Ukraine to join.

I don't understand the need for a military alliance to expand its borders in the way NATO has - especially as most of this expansion has occurred following the ending of the Cold War. A great deal of money, military spending and propaganda was expended by the West to stop the expansion of the Soviet Union, indeed to faciltate its break-up - I find it less surprising than some that Russia is reacting in the face of Western military and political 'expansion'.

 

[somerset]

And yet for more than a week the Ukrainians continued to deny they were responsible for shooting down the aircraft - all very familiar.

In the case of the shooting down of the Iranian airliner by the US the Pentagon initially denied responsibility and when they did 'bent the truth' over the circumstances.

Russia initially denied shooting down the Korean aircraft,.

About the only time a military force has immediately admitted the 'accidental' shooting down of a civilian aircraft was in the case of Israel shooting down of Libyan Airlines Flight 114.

None of this is to support the Separatist's prevarication over the current incident but rather to point out that nobody should be surprised they are!

Though I dont think in any of the cases, items were removed, altered, returned and generally kept from all interested investigative bodies, this scenario is simply unique in its casual indifference to the lost and their families.

 

[Creaky]

Though I dont think in any of the cases, items were removed, altered, returned and generally kept from all interested investigative bodies, this scenario is simply unique in its casual indifference to the lost and their families.

What about the Korean Airlines one.

"Here again, a similar chain of events took place for KAL 007. In the months that followed, Moscow sealed off the crash site near Sakahlin Island from outsiders, and never revealed if it had found wreckage, flight data recorders, or bodies."

Even today the whereabouts of the bodies has not been revealed!

 

[carlzeiss]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/ukraine-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17

 

[Hillian1]

What about the Korean Airlines one.

"Here again, a similar chain of events took place for KAL 007. In the months that followed, Moscow sealed off the crash site near Sakahlin Island from outsiders, and never revealed if it had found wreckage, flight data recorders, or bodies."

Even today the whereabouts of the bodies has not been revealed!

But they did eventually give the Flight Data Recorders back, which showed nothing other than a sudden catastrophic failure, which these will.

And I believe the ones from KAL were proven to be not tampered with.