Malaysian airline crash

[peterward]

Really - I would have thought that a bigger fear would be the possibility of Ukraine joining Nato which would leave just Belarus alone on its Western border as a non-member. Belarus in turn would be surrounded by NATO countries were the Ukraine to join.

I don't understand the need for a military alliance to expand its borders in the way NATO has - especially as most of this expansion has occurred following the ending of the Cold War. A great deal of money, military spending and propaganda was expended by the West to stop the expansion of the Soviet Union, indeed to faciltate its break-up - I find it less surprising than some that Russia is reacting in the face of Western military and political 'expansion'.

Creaky, you are right of course, however the Russian Enclave on Kaliningrad is surrounded and what? whilst there have been some like Yulia Tymoshenko who have called for NATO membership in the face of moscows invading crimea and ongoing destabilisation, generally their has been no official call to join..... and prior to all this shit, the general public concensus was against it........ if anything, Putins actions have been counter productive on that front, the % who want NATO membership has increased..... but it always was and always will be unlikley to happen and is not a genuine reason for Putin's attempted dismemberment of Ukraine.......... Putins is a died in the wall Stalinist, soviet expansionist with delusions of restoring the russian dominated empire, if you read the actual "Eurasian" doctrine Putin believes in by Alexander Duggin, its pretty mad stuff, a Moscow dominated empire from Lisbon to Vladivostok controlled by russia.

We saw far right parties prosper in the euro elections, the Kremlin is one of the largest sponsors of EU far right and opposition parties..... probably not so much because of ideology, Kremlin simply has a policy of trying to divide and weaken the established EU order...... for the full Eurasian dream to become a reality the EU would have to be weakened and its stage 1 proposed start date of jan 1st 2015 (the soviet union 2 in all but name) without a Ukraine is a lame duck. I can only imagine how seething Putin is his grand plans of restoring and expanding the former soviet empire could be disrupted by insolent little brother ukraine trying the break free from his shackles.

interesting article http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

 

[sparkie]

Really - I would have thought that a bigger fear would be the possibility of Ukraine joining Nato which would leave just Belarus alone on its Western border as a non-member. Belarus in turn would be surrounded by NATO countries were the Ukraine to join.

I don't understand the need for a military alliance to expand its borders in the way NATO has - especially as most of this expansion has occurred following the ending of the Cold War. A great deal of money, military spending and propaganda was expended by the West to stop the expansion of the Soviet Union, indeed to faciltate its break-up - I find it less surprising than some that Russia is reacting in the face of Western military and political 'expansion'.

Nope. The main fear for Putin is a Ukraine free of state corruption, with rising standards of living, setting a very real example to his own citizens.

If he doesn't stop the changes in Ukraine, his fear is they spread first to Belarus, then to republics on the edges of the Russian Federation, then to Moscow itself.

 

[Creaky]

Nope. The main fear for Putin is a Ukraine free of state corruption, with rising standards of living, setting a very real example to his own citizens.

If he doesn't stop the changes in Ukraine, his fear is they spread first to Belarus, then to republics on the edges of the Russian Federation, then to Moscow itself.

Sounds good but if that is the case why has Russia more than tripled the wages of state workers in Crimea to the same level as Russia's workers.

With the lowest average earnings in Europe Ukraine has a long way to go before they outstrip Russia's standard of living.

 

[sparkie]

Sounds good but if that is the case why has Russia more than tripled the wages of state workers in Crimea to the same level as Russia's workers.

With the lowest average earnings in Europe Ukraine has a long way to go before they outstrip Russia's standard of living.

They haven't.

The promises were big, the delivery less so.

 

[dingodan]

"As it turns out, Putin does not appear interested in annexing more pieces of a divided Ukraine, contrary to the assertions of some in the U.S. His main goal seems more likely to be preventing Ukraine from becoming another base for the NATO military alliance, on its border, which in Russia is understandably seen as a threat. (NATO added 12 countries from Eastern Europe between 1999-2009.) And this could be better achieved through negotiations. As for Poroshenko, depending on how badly things go with the IMF/EU program, he may end up needing help from Russia after all. At the very least he wouldn't want to leave himself completely at the mercy of the IMF-Washington-EU decision-makers. They have a plan to restructure Ukraine's economy, and it could turn out to be a mass-unemployment nightmare."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/ukraines-imf-agreement-co_b_5431804.html

 

[Soulman]

Another opinion.
"Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17."
http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

 

[dingodan]

Another opinion.
"Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17."
http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

Original source: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

 

[dingodan]

Original source: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

Robert Parry is another good investigative journalist.

Robert Parry (born June 24, 1949) is an American investigative journalist best known for his role in covering the Iran-Contra affair for the Associated Press and Newsweek, including breaking the Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare (CIA manual provided to the Nicaraguan contras) and the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal in 1985. He was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984. He has been the editor of ConsortiumNews.com since 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

 

[beorhthelm]

Another opinion.
"Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17."
http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

not one to take seriously from that source. seriously, are some still not going to acknowledge and accept that rebels themselves, in Russian media, claimed they shot down a plane at the time and location?

 

[dingodan]

From Robert Parry article above,

"Yet, what Americans have seen again is the major U.S. news outlets, led by the Washington Post and the New York Times, publishing the most inflammatory of articles based largely on unreliable Ukrainian officials and on the U.S. State Department which was a principal instigator of the Ukraine crisis.

In the recent past, this sort of sloppy American journalism has led to mass slaughters in Iraq – and has contributed to near U.S. wars on Syria and Iran – but now the stakes are much higher. As much fun as it is to heap contempt on a variety of “designated villains,” such as Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Ali Khamenei and now Vladimir Putin, this sort of recklessness is careening the world toward a very dangerous moment, conceivably its last."

 

[Creaky]

not one to take seriously from that source. seriously, are some still not going to acknowledge and accept that rebels themselves, in Russian media, claimed they shot down a plane at the time and location?

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/591308...l-commander-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the

"The VK account may not actually be run by Strelkov at all. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon spoke to eastern Ukrainian rebels who said the page "is a fake made by fans." If that's the case, it may be that Strelkov fanboys saw the plane go down, surmised (perhaps wrongly) that rebels had shot them down, and bragged about it on the VK page. It is also possible, to be fair, that the rebels were lying to Seddon about the VK page."

 

[martyn20]

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/591308...l-commander-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the

"The VK account may not actually be run by Strelkov at all. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon spoke to eastern Ukrainian rebels who said the page "is a fake made by fans." If that's the case, it may be that Strelkov fanboys saw the plane go down, surmised (perhaps wrongly) that rebels had shot them down, and bragged about it on the VK page. It is also possible, to be fair, that the rebels were lying to Seddon about the VK page."

How can you explain away the recorded phone call?

 

[martyn20]

Conspiracy radio host Alex Jones calls MH17 downing a ‘false flag’ because of course he would

View attachment 56499

Assembling a collection of newspaper headlines, out of context quotes, and rumors of unsourced tweets, analysts and correspondents for Alex Jones’ Info Wars have cast doubt upon the evolving consensus that Russian separatists in the Ukraine shot down flight MH17, explaining that the downing of the flight is a ‘false flag,’ designed to foment an international war in the region.

Introducing the segment, Lee Ann McAdoo said, “Here we are, teetering on the edge of World War III, and the globalists really seem to be accelerating their plan. It used to be a lot easier to convince the masses of whatever their global agenda was with the propaganda arm of the media.”

McAdoo went on to explain that the globalists, “…used to set small fires here and there, fires that we could easily stamp out here at Info Wars. But now, they’re just going to go ahead and set the whole world on fire all at once.”

Pointing out that within 24-hours of the downing of flight MH17, the “neo-con wing of the establishment has already decided that Russia is to blame,” McAdoo shared clips of Senator John McCain and Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton suggesting that Russia or Russian separatists might be involved, with neither asserting it as a fact.

McAdoo suggested the jetliner could have been shot down by Ukrainian forces or might have been an accident.

Comparing the missile attack on the Malaysian airliner to the sinking of the Maine in Havana Harbor in 1898, precipitating the Spanish–American War, Info Wars David Knight explained that the international media is indulging in ‘yellow journalism,’ in the manner of Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst.

Knight shared a cartoon from the era showing American citizens being searched for secret messages to Spain and compared it to TSA pat-downs at the airport. Knight additionally claimed that President Obama was using the crash as a distraction from other world events, including hostilities in the Gaza Strip.

Asking why MH17 was flying over war-torn Ukraine, even though it was not prohibited, Knight added that the flight was asked by the air controller to fly at 32, 000 feet, making it easier to shoot down and lower that American flights which traditionally fly at 35,000 feet. Knight did note that 32,000 feet is consistent with European flights.

Referring to an unspecified video having something to do with the crash, an Info Wars correspondent pointed out conflicting time stamps without pointing out what it meant, before adding the authenticity of videos information was “unconfirmed.”

Info Wars’ Paul Joseph Watson helped connect the dots suggesting that Ukraine was responsible for shooting the plane down instead of Russia, by reporting on “panicked tweets” from a Spanish air-controller who was in the tower at Kiev Boryspil airport who claimed — “unconfirmed”– that “three minutes before the radar tower lost contact with the Malaysian airlines plane, it had Ukrainian fighter jets surrounding it. He said Kiev shot it down.”

The Spanish air-controller also tweeted that Kiev authorities threatened tower employees telling them to “shut up.”

Watson noted that, unfortunately the Twitter account has now been deleted.

As further evidence many mentions were made of the Ukraine shooting down a Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 in 2001, stating that the country had a history of shooting down airliners.

No correspondent mentioned the downing of KAL 007 in 1983 by Russia.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/...ning-a-false-flag-because-of-course-he-would/

Alex Jones has never met a news story he could turn into an establishment conspiracy theory, grabbing some information and totally disregarding others.
The most likely explanation is quite often the true one. It's either part of a global plan to start World War III or someone in a field miss identified a plane on a radar screen!

 

[beorhthelm]

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/591308...l-commander-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the

"The VK account may not actually be run by Strelkov at all. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon spoke to eastern Ukrainian rebels who said the page "is a fake made by fans." If that's the case, it may be that Strelkov fanboys saw the plane go down, surmised (perhaps wrongly) that rebels had shot them down, and bragged about it on the VK page. It is also possible, to be fair, that the rebels were lying to Seddon about the VK page."

did they fake this one too? there was at least half a dozen pages, tweets that were removed once they realised the cock up.

one thing this story is doing is flushing out all the anti-establishment journalists who are against anything US/west. we know the rebels shot down the plane because they said they did it. any one claiming a source otherwise is obviously trying to sell an agenda.

 

[Creaky]

did they fake this one too? there was at least half a dozen pages, tweets that were removed once they realised the cock up.

one thing this story is doing is flushing out all the anti-establishment journalists who are against anything US/west. we know the rebels shot down the plane because they said they did it. any one claiming a source otherwise is obviously trying to sell an agenda.

Well according to the Ukrainian PM Valery Heletey they did fake it as he claims it was shot down by Russia!

The whole point is that it is very easy to make claim and counter-claim before all the facts are known and before a full investigation is carried out.

The media seem to be quite rightly demanding a full enquiry surrounding this shooting down whilst at the same time stating definitively what the result of that enquiry will be and demanding action. If we know who is responsible then what is the point of carrying out any further investigation?

It may well have been the separatists who shot down the plane but it could have been the Russians or the Ukrainians who did so. That is why the circumstances surrounding the shooting down needs a full investigation and the disclosure of all evidence surrounding this - evidence not just from the rebel and Russian side but also from the Ukrainians and more importantly from the US and their satellite network.

 

[dingodan]

we know the rebels shot down the plane because they said they did it. any one claiming a source otherwise is obviously trying to sell an agenda.

You can't really say that and be serious.

 

[dingodan]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/...ning-a-false-flag-because-of-course-he-would/

Alex Jones has never met a news story he could turn into an establishment conspiracy theory, grabbing some information and totally disregarding others.
The most likely explanation is quite often the true one. It's either part of a global plan to start World War III or someone in a field miss identified a plane on a radar screen!

I agree with you about Alex Jones.

That's why it's always useful to look for the source on a story, and keep checking back until you get to primary sources.

In this case the source is: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

In order to discredit the story you would need to tell us why we shouldn't trust the journalistic credentials of Robert Parry, not Alex Jones.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

All of this who did it and why will be irrelevant as it will get sadly brushed under the carpet, as neither Russia or the USA want or at this moment in time can afford a conflict. Nothing will happen and it will quickly become yesterdays news, sad but true.

 

[peterward]

Another opinion.
"Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17."
http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

A source where? In moscow.. Ukraine can account for every single one of its Buk missiles and has offered to do so, Ukraine has not fired a single Surfice to air missile in thus conflict and why would it when the DNR doesn't have an air force. The Russians however shot down a Ukrainian airforce fighter from Russia the day before mh17 have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft, claimed to have shot down another Ukrainian military until realising it was a civilian before backtracking, have been caught on numerous wiretaps admitting they did it, have obstructed and tampered with the crash site. Local residens are now saying they saw the BUK system being fired by rebels and it was videod less 2 of its 4 rockets being driven back across the Russian border within hours..... Yes of course it must have been Ukraine, maybe elvis was operating it

 

[hans kraay fan club]

A source where? In moscow.. Ukraine can account for every single one of its Buk missiles and has offered to do so, Ukraine has not fired a single Surfice to air missile in thus conflict and why would it when the DNR doesn't have an air force. The Russians however shot down a Ukrainian airforce fighter from Russia the day before mh17 have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft, claimed to have shot down another Ukrainian military until realising it was a civilian before backtracking, have been caught on numerous wiretaps admitting they did it, have obstructed and tampered with the crash site. Local residens are now saying they saw the BUK system being fired by rebels and it was videod less 2 of its 4 rockets being driven back across the Russian border within hours..... Yes of course it must have been Ukraine, maybe elvis was operating it

Decent summation.

Some of the nonsense being spouted on this is quite ridiculous.