[Politics] Jeremy Corbyn and a new political party.

[Questions]

Because he’s not a communist and not Russian?

Nitpicking

 

[borat]

Its funny that the Labour right helped to sabotage the last election and now are expecting him and the left to fall in line. The anti-semitism smears were a disgraceful political scam, made against someone who has fought for the working class and minorities his whole life. He was the best opportunity for genuine change for a long time. Now we have likely the most corrupt government ever and a Tory lite opposition who appear to stand for nothing.

 

[rippleman]

I’m sure there are many of the Jewish faith who may not agree with that….


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Only those who can't understand the difference between an anti-Semite and an anti-Zionist. Presumably you are unaware that there are some of the Jewish faith who do not support the State of Israel and the way it treats both Palestinians and Christians?

 

[borat]

Exactly and Left wing Jews are being expelled from the Labour party at an alarming rate.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...-jewish-members-has-dramatically-intensified/

This video from a Jewish MP who fought against apartheid as an MP in South Africa. Hard to disagree with anything he says.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR4SKdX1QfY&t=4s

 

[Brovion]

I haven't read the thread, so this may have been mentioned before, but all those worrying/hoping that Corbyn will split the Labour vote: don't panic (or gloat) - it won't happen.

This was tried before. In 1996, disgusted by the rightward shift of New Labour, a group of Socialists under Arthur Scargill left Labour and set up a new left-wing Labour Party: Socialist Labour. There was much talk that it would split the Labour vote, but in it its first General Election in 1997 not only did it do nothing to stop the Blair landslide it only polled 0.2% of the vote. Not 2%, 0.2%. That was the high-water mark. Since then it has declined into total irrelevance, indeed in 2019 it only polled 494 votes.

It's a shame, because as an old-school 1970s Socialist it's my natural home (and of course they're staunchly anti-EU), but even I'll admit it's a wasted vote - assuming you can find one of their candidates of course.

 

[seagully]

The kidz know.

That 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' chant is the cringiest thing I have ever witnessed. Makes me want to chew my own face off out of sheer cringe

 

[Swansman]

I haven't read the thread, so this may have been mentioned before, but all those worrying/hoping that Corbyn will split the Labour vote: don't panic (or gloat) - it won't happen.

This was tried before. In 1996, disgusted by the rightward shift of New Labour, a group of Socialists under Arthur Scargill left Labour and set up a new left-wing Labour Party: Socialist Labour. There was much talk that it would split the Labour vote, but in it its first General Election in 1997 not only did it do nothing to stop the Blair landslide it only polled 0.2% of the vote. Not 2%, 0.2%. That was the high-water mark. Since then it has declined into total irrelevance, indeed in 2019 it only polled 494 votes.

It's a shame, because as an old-school 1970s Socialist it's my natural home (and of course they're staunchly anti-EU), but even I'll admit it's a wasted vote - assuming you can find one of their candidates of course.

Might be a better chance now. When things are going well, people have no desire for new politics. If you look all over Europe, and the Western world in general, not much change happened in the political landscape in the late 90s. It is very easy to rule a coutries when the economy is booming and there's positivity all around. Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Göran Persson and so on could all have revealed themselves as being chimps or gorillas after they won their initial elections, they would still have been re-elected in late 90s elections and any newcomer regardless of politics would have a rough time.

 

[Comrade Sam]

It was remarkable how Britain's leading liar and documented racist won an election that many were convinced was against a racist liar who has by a country mile the MP with best documented history of fighting racism in all it's forms. A man that is only in parliament because he believes he can do something for those around him. In Corbyn's own constituency the vast majority of the local Jewish community hold him in the highest esteem because he has fought anti-Semitism from day one. How many MPs actually attend demonstrations and vigils against racism and racist violence, let alone organise those demonstrations. It is sad that many genuinely intelligent and well educated people can still regurgitate the tripe whipped up against Corbyn. My local MP was even claiming Jewish constituents were afraid to attend local party meetings on newsnight the week before the election. I had attended every one of those meetings for 3 years. The local left that ran the branch were majority Jewish. This includes a holocaust survivor, 2 children of holocaust survivors and an Israeli citizen. Israel was the topic of conversation once in that time after the massacre on the right to return march. A motion to condemn the violent response was supported by all but 2 people in the room. One of those opposed to the motion claimed all the dead were terrorists, then stormed out leaving the room in stunned silence.

 

[Live by the sea]

It was remarkable how Britain's leading liar and documented racist won an election that many were convinced was against a racist liar who has by a country mile the MP with best documented history of fighting racism in all it's forms. A man that is only in parliament because he believes he can do something for those around him. In Corbyn's own constituency the vast majority of the local Jewish community hold him in the highest esteem because he has fought anti-Semitism from day one. How many MPs actually attend demonstrations and vigils against racism and racist violence, let alone organise those demonstrations. It is sad that many genuinely intelligent and well educated people can still regurgitate the tripe whipped up against Corbyn. My local MP was even claiming Jewish constituents were afraid to attend local party meetings on newsnight the week before the election. I had attended every one of those meetings for 3 years. The local left that ran the branch were majority Jewish. This includes a holocaust survivor, 2 children of holocaust survivors and an Israeli citizen. Israel was the topic of conversation once in that time after the massacre on the right to return march. A motion to condemn the violent response was supported by all but 2 people in the room. One of those opposed to the motion claimed all the dead were terrorists, then stormed out leaving the room in stunned silence.

Eer that’s definitely not what any of my Jewish friends think ! Most have traditionally voted Labour until Corbyn took power . Interestingly all but one have now gone back to support Labour because they have a new leader who thankfully isn’t like Corbyn . Ie doesn’t support prescribed terrorist groups like Hamas & IRA .

 

[lawros left foot]

The people who believe that anti Zionism is the same as anti Semitism , are the same people who believe Communism is the same as Socialism.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The idea that Blair was a decent socialist that also set fire to the Middle East misses the point. His wars sum up the man, he was the wolf in sheep's clothing. Had the 2017 election been a week later after Glenthorpe Corbyn would have had a landslide. It took a massive effort by all those that preferred the status quo to persuade people they didn't want change - the Tories, Libs, media, Labour establishment, Rabbi Sachs, that Harry Potter woman etc. The final nail was when Starmer and the right of the party persuaded Corbyn to call a second referendum, destroying the support of the large base of leave voting labour voters in the north and places like Chingford. Where I was told this on the doorstep whilst canvasing over and over again.

Yes. I am aware of the narrarative that Corbyn would have been a great PM and his legacy was stolen by a conspiracy of tories, Starmer, the media and the other people you mentioned. Much the same was said about Michael Foot (defeated by Murdoch). Personally I regard this as patronizing because you are casting a majority of voters as mugs who don't understand what's in their best interest. You may be correct to be patronizing (maybe voters are mostly mugs) but, if so Corbyn still had to work out how to win if he wanted to win, and should have had the wits to deal with the conspiracy. On that point alone (and there are many others) he was a massive failure.

I don't recall Corbyn calling a second referendum. I was very exercised about Brexit but I don't recall Corbyn showing any leadership on that whatsoever. If it whooshed me it would have whooshed others. The idea that Corbyn's stance on Brexit, which he was 'forced' into by Starmer, is what swung the general election in favour of Johnson strikes me, frankly, as ludicrous. Don't believe everything you hear on the doorsteps of hesitant labour supporters in Chingford. And, personally I would never make political strategy on the back of the views of people who repeatedly elected Normal Tebbitt.

Presumably you regard Blair, who won 3 general eletions, as someone who did succeed in patronizing the mug electors, while doing all the things that pleased the likes of (and I will cut and paste) the Tories, Libs, media, Labour establishment, Rabbi Sachs, that Harry Potter woman and Starmer and the right of the party. That is itself a patronizing view; you appear to consider electors as wise when they vote hard old labour, but mugs when the vote soft labour (or tory, green, liberal or 'other').

Like my middle brother, you appear to still believe that the road to socialist utopia is 'no compromise with the electorate'. As a labour party member myself I find that laughable, and much prefer an electable labour party, one that seeks the best possible arrangements for society than can obtain sufficient support to put the party in power (the only way to effect change), because electors cannot be manhandled into the polling booth and made to vote; this is England, not China (or bloody Australia).

My advice is stop telling yourself that Johnston stole the election with the connivance of Starmer and his secret team of remainers. You'll end up like the old labour equivalent of the Trump gang. The name of the game, now is to win, not winge.

 

[lawros left foot]

Eer that’s definitely not what any of my Jewish friends think ! Most have traditionally voted Labour until Corbyn took power . Interestingly all but one have now gone back to support Labour because they have a new leader who thankfully isn’t like Corbyn . Ie doesn’t support prescribed terrorist groups like Hamas & IRA .

Strange that since his election as an MP in 1983, he had not a single accusation of anti semitism until 2015 when he became Labour leader.
It’s almost as if it was the most toxic accusation that his enemies within, and without the Labour Party could find to smear him. The famous mural that he liked on Facebook was unveiled in 2012.


It was a stitch up.

 

[Comrade Sam]

If all you want is a return of Blair what's the point, just one neoliberal privatiser replaced by another with a different coloured rosette. I have not been a Socialist all my life to be naïve enough to think the road to a better world would be easy. But I also do not hold the patronising opinion that the great unwashed aren't clued up enough to think the world could be run in a more egalitarian way. A stat many years ago amused me - 80% of Guardian readers believe what they read in the papers, whilst 80% of Sun readers said they don't. It's also funny who prescribes terrorist status to people and places, as Blair should be officially recognised as a terrorist organisation.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Astonishing that when we have a weak, lying, rule breaking PM who is being briefed against by half his party that Corbyn is seeking to split the progressive vote because Sub-Section 2, Paragraph 3, line 1 isn't quite socialist enough.

You can only conclude he never wanted power in the fist place. Some people are only comfortable criticising those who are actually leading from the sidelines. Jezza is one of them.

This.

The only people bringing up Corbyn these days are wistful old labourites so foolish they thought that Corbyn would win and save us all, encouraging Daily Mail reader types like potg to point and laugh at them.

Personally I quite like a bit of publicity about Corbyn, especially now that he is about to betray the labour party again, remindiing us how disloyal he was as a back bencher (repeatedly voting against the labour position) and warning against the folly of allowing a minority of noisy activists to hi-jack a political party. A lesson that conservatives will also need to learn soon as the folly of the Johnson gang become more evident.

 

[Lower West Stander]

Yes. I am aware of the narrarative that Corbyn would have been a great PM and his legacy was stolen by a conspiracy of tories, Starmer, the media and the other people you mentioned. Much the same was said about Michael Foot (defeated by Murdoch). Personally I regard this as patronizing because you are casting a majority of voters as mugs who don't understand what's in their best interest. You may be correct to be patronizing (maybe voters are mostly mugs) but, if so Corbyn still had to work out how to win if he wanted to win, and should have had the wits to deal with the conspiracy. On that point alone (and there are many others) he was a massive failure.

I don't recall Corbyn calling a second referendum. I was very exercised about Brexit but I don't recall Corbyn showing any leadership on that whatsoever. If it whooshed me it would ave whooshed others. The idea that Corbyn's stance on Brexit, which he was 'forced' into by Starmer, is what swung the general election in favour of Johnson strikes me, frankly, as ludicrous. Don't believe everything you hear on the doorsteps of hesitant labour supporters in Chingford. And, personally I would never make political strategy on the back of the views of people who repeatedly elected Normal Tebbitt.

Presumably you regard Blair, who won 3 general eletions, as someone who did succeed in patronizing the mug electors, while doing all the things that pleased the likes of (and I will cut and paste) the Tories, Libs, media, Labour establishment, Rabbi Sachs, that Harry Potter woman and Starmer and the right of the party. That is itself a patronizing view; you appear to consider electors as wise when they vote hard old labour, but mugs when the vote soft labour (or tory, green, liberal or 'other').

Like my middle brother, you appear to still believe that the road to socialist utopia is 'no compromise with the electorate'. As a labour party member myself I find that laughable, and much prefer an electable labour party, one that seeks the best possible arrangements for society than can obtain sufficient support to put the party in power (the only way to effect change), because electors cannot be manhandled into the polling booth and made to vote; this is England, not China (or bloody Australia).

My advice is stop telling yourself that Johnston stole the election with the connivance of Starmer and his secret team of remainers. You'll end up like the old labour equivalent of the Trump gang. The name of the game, now is to win, not winge.

Nice post Harry.

I think the issue is that if you share Corbyn's idealism, you're never going to agree to the point of view of others. This is not an issue around practicality, but more around fundamental socialist principles. Like many theories, these sound great, but don't work in practice - it doesn't stop the pursuance of utopia though.

I'm a natural Tory voter, but I can see that Boris has been a lying tool since he came to power. His right leaning principles talk to my view of the world but there is no way I would vote for him in the next election (I didn't in the last one either) because I neither like nor trust him. Its interesting that Corbynites still see their man as the Messiah with no shortcomings (one or two honourable exceptions on here tbf) and to just say it was the media is an insult to the population whose vote they seek.

I think he had some good ideas, but they need to be blended into a more moderate view of the world - not the "my way of the highway" view which many of the hard left seem to adhere to. An idealistic view of the world needs to be blended with practicalities.

 

[lawros left foot]

This.

The only people bringing up Corbyn these days are wistful old labourites so foolish they thought that Corbyn would win and save us all, encouraging Daily Mail reader types like potg to point and laugh at them.

Personally I quite like a bit of publicity about Corbyn, especially now that he is about to betray the labour party again, remindiing us how disloyal he was as a back bencher (repeatedly voting against the labour position) and warning against the folly of allowing a minority of noisy activists to hi-jack a political party. A lesson that conservatives will also need to learn soon as the folly of the Johnson gang become more evident.

HWT, do you really consider it disloyal to vote against the party if it’s something you disagree with?
Do you consider that all the Tory MPs now voting along with Johnson’s hardline Brexit party, even against their better judgement and even statements made in the past in support of our membership of the EU? Do you really believe that it is honourable to do a 180 degree turn because of personal advantage.
As for a noisy minority of Torys hijacking the party, I think that ship sailed some time ago.

 

[lawros left foot]

I read something the other day, it’s not Socialism that frightens people, it’s the American aggression against it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Nice post Harry.

I think the issue is that if you share Corbyn's idealism, you're never going to agree to the point of view of others. This is not an issue around practicality, but more around fundamental socialist principles. Like many theories, these sound great, but don't work in practice - it doesn't stop the pursuance of utopia though.

I'm a natural Tory voter, but I can see that Boris has been a lying tool since he came to power. His right leaning principles talk to my view of the world but there is no way I would vote for him in the next election (I didn't in the last one either) because I neither like nor trust him. Its interesting that Corbynites still see their man as the Messiah with no shortcomings (one or two honourable exceptions on here tbf) and to just say it was the media is an insult to the population whose vote they seek.

I think he had some good ideas, but they need to be blended into a more moderate view of the world - not the "my way of the highway" view which many of the hard left seem to adhere to. An idealistic view of the world needs to be blended with practicalities.

Cheers

Yes, Corbyn isn't all bad, as a man, albeit I can understand how his refusal to criticise antisemitism by name is insulting to some, just as 'I condemn all forms of prejudice and white lives matter too' is insulting to others. Leadership, vision, communication skills, and organization must always be aligned with judgement.

No matter how noble one's intentions, as you correctly infer, politics is the art of the possible. I find it odd that many grown ups don't undestand this

Anyway....best I do some work

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

HWT, do you really consider it disloyal to vote against the party if it’s something you disagree with?
Do you consider that all the Tory MPs now voting along with Johnson’s hardline Brexit party, even against their better judgement and even statements made in the past in support of our membership of the EU? Do you really believe that it is honourable to do a 180 degree turn because of personal advantage.
As for a noisy minority of Torys hijacking the party, I think that ship sailed some time ago.

I would vote against, certainly. I would hope it would come to that only one or twice in my time as a backbencher, or I would have to question whether I was in the right party. In Corbyn's case voting against the labour position was his default! He is on record as being one if the most (if not the most) disloyal back bencher, in terms of voting against his party, in history. There are back bench rebellions, and there are marverick weirdos who are psychologically unfit to be part of the team. (He became leader owing to a trajedy of foolishness by people who neither wanted nor expected him to win).

Dunk score a few own goals early in his career. If he caried on doing it a couple of times a month throughout his career he wouldn't be in the team, let alone captain.

 

[arkan]

If you need examples after all that’s happened over the last 2 years , then clearly you’re in denial..

No, I want to see what actual quoted examples of JC being racist are.