It's all over for Labour & Mr Brown

[Tooting Gull]

Worked for Fettes educated Blair in 1997, didn't it?

Just what is it with this class envy and toff references? Do you genuinely believe that all are equally able to lead this country except those whose parents had the opportunity to send them to Eton?

Sorry, that should have read except for those TORIES whose parents had the opportunity etc etc etc. Strange really. You don't hear the same thing about born into nobility, Harriet Harman from you lot. I wonder why.

With respect, you are missing the point on this thread. This is about who the Sun supports, and why. But you go off on your class envy rant. For the record, I'd scrap all private education tomorrow, whether it's Cameron or Harman who benefited. Hope that clears that one up.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

With respect, you are missing the point on this thread. This is about who the Sun supports, and why. But you go off on your class envy rant. For the record, I'd scrap all private education tomorrow, whether it's Cameron or Harman who benefited. Hope that clears that one up.

My class envy rant? Bit f***ing rich (sic). You're the one who called Cameron a toff. With respect, you're the one missing the point, comrade.

For the record, I don't give a toss what education our future leader got as long as they can do the job. Hope that clears that up.

 

[clapham_gull]

i understand and the defeatism/apathetic behaviour just makes me feel sad. so many people don't trust the current 3 main parties yet the media won't give any proper coverage to other parties and I imagine there are many people that would vote for other parties if they felt it wasn't wasted. it just feels rotten IMO.

.. and then the Prime Minister who you didn't vote for anyway falls out with someone in the cabinet and gets a Lord in you nevergot the chance to vote for anyway.

You start explaining this to people who come from countries where it a legal requirement to vote and they start to understand why no-one bothers to turn up. It's simply stupid.

The two main parties are so close politically (but contain their own factions) that compromises are the nature of the game anyway, so I wouldn't worry about a how a coalition would operate. Probably very much the same.

Wouldn't it be great assembling a government of people who were the best ones for the job, rather than simply on the basis of what political party managed to win the most seats (as opposed to the most votes)

 

[jono1988]

My class envy rant? Bit f***ing rich (sic). You're the one who called Cameron a toff. With respect, you're the one missing the point, comrade.

For the record, I don't give a toss what education our future leader got as long as they can do the job. Hope that clears that up.

Er.....no.

He paraphrased the Sun (hence the quotation mark) then said it was hardly a ringing endorsement. Try reading what he wrote.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

.. and then the Prime Minister who you didn't vote for anyway falls out with someone in the cabinet and gets a Lord in you nevergot the chance to vote for anyway.

You start explaining this to people who come from countries where it a legal requirement to vote and they start to understand why no-one bothers to turn up. It's simply stupid.

The two main parties are so close politically (but contain their own factions) that compromises are the nature of the game anyway, so I wouldn't worry about a how a coalition would operate. Probably very much the same.

Wouldn't it be great assembling a government of people who were the best ones for the job, rather than simply on the basis of what political party managed to win the most seats (as opposed to the most votes)

It's not stupid. It's just a different system to one of the many types of PR. And whether you like it or not (I personally have my misgivings about all the systems this included) it can and does work. The Governments are not that much different to the PR based ones with Centre left and Right parties holding sway. Only difference with FPTP is that the fringe and extremist parties don't get a look in.

I'd agree on compulsory voting though with a promise of an extra box on the ballot paper saying "none of the above"

 

[Superphil]

f*** em all, liars the lot of 'em

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

Er.....no.

He paraphrased the Sun (hence the quotation mark) then said it was hardly a ringing endorsement. Try reading what he wrote.

Er...yes.

How do you get from

Quoted on the Sun website direct from that link:

The Sun's political editor George Pascoe Watson told Sky News: "We felt Labour had it within them to change the course of Britain's future.

PM's speech didn't impress The Sun

"But we feel now that they have failed the country and are letting people down."

Watson said The Sun was "impressed" by David Cameron, but promised: "We will always be critical friends of the Conservatives, as we were with Labour, we will tell them when they are going wrong."

To:

So the Sun's message is:

'Vote Cameron - yes, he's a c**t too, and a toff to boot, but we could all do with a change.'

It's hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

I don't recall seeing the word TOFF in the Sun. Comrade Tooting added that. His paraphrase, his use of the word TOFF. The Sun didn't mention it. I didn't mention it. So who else brought up the class distinctions then?

Hope that clears that one up too.

(p.s. welcome to the board)

 

[clapham_gull]

It's not stupid. It's just a different system to one of the many types of PR. And whether you like it or not (I personally have my misgivings about all the systems this included) it can and does work. The Governments are not that much different to the PR based ones with Centre left and Right parties holding sway. Only difference with FPTP is that the fringe and extremist parties don't get a look in.

I'd agree on compulsory voting though with a promise of an extra box on the ballot paper saying "none of the above"

If you read what I posted I was commenting on the utter stupity of a system that not only allows minority Governments to rule the country but also allows unelected people into the cabinet.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Yes, that's right. I added stuff. I didn't just come on here and lemming-like regurgitate something somebody else wrote. Sorry.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

If you read what I posted I was commenting on the utter stupity of a system that not only allows minority Governments to rule the country but also allows unelected people into the cabinet.

I know. but minority Governments rule in all coalitions. And what if those unelected people are patently the best people to do the job by virtue of experience or their freedom from political kow-towing?

Swings and roundabouts. Our system works. Various other systems work. Doesn't necessarily make things stupid, does it?

 

[auschr]

.. and then the Prime Minister who you didn't vote for anyway falls out with someone in the cabinet and gets a Lord in you nevergot the chance to vote for anyway.

You start explaining this to people who come from countries where it a legal requirement to vote and they start to understand why no-one bothers to turn up. It's simply stupid.

The two main parties are so close politically (but contain their own factions) that compromises are the nature of the game anyway, so I wouldn't worry about a how a coalition would operate. Probably very much the same.

Wouldn't it be great assembling a government of people who were the best ones for the job, rather than simply on the basis of what political party managed to win the most seats (as opposed to the most votes)

fair enough mate.. ive lived in america and it's much worse.. the 2 main parties try their hardest to make it difficult for 3rd parties to even get their names on the ballots.. democracy in action? i felt let down by the bbc for once with all the news about peoples trust in govt in general the past year when they reserve all the time for party campaigns its lib/lab/cons and thats it..i'd expected it from sky but not the bbc.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

Yes, that's right. I added stuff. I didn't just come on here and lemming-like regurgitate something somebody else wrote. Sorry.

Eh? Am I missing something here? Why are you playing the martyr? I don't see anyone else on this thread being lemming-like either? It's just that no-one else thought it necessary to start the class war argument.

 

[beorhthelm]

why does it matter so much who they support??

because there is a large group in the population that are generally apathetic to daily politics but will vote for the general election. its not that they are easily led so much, just if they have little idea either way they take note of their daily paper.

I was trying to explain this to a foreign colleague who didn't believe it was possible for a party to get the most votes in this country and lose the election.

I've always thought it was ridiculous.

i dont think that can happen here can it? you can get a majority in parliment with far less than 50% of the popular vote, but thats very different. I think in the US you can loose the popular vote and win due to the make up of the electrol college (sp?), but im pretty sure here if you got 50% of the vote you'd return with a massive majority.

 

[clapham_gull]

And what if those unelected people are patently the best people to do the job by virtue of experience or their freedom from political kow-towing?

No that's simply a case of those in power getting the like minded in without having to worry about the inconvenience of getting them elected.

It also makes them far less likely to take a different point of view as they have absolutely no mandate to do otherwise.

In any case, if there exists a neccessity to bring people into the cabinet in such a way, it goes a long way to prove my point that something is very wrong with the current system.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

No that's simply a case of those in power getting the like minded in without having to worry about the inconvenience of getting them elected.

It also makes them far less likely to take a different point of view as they have absolutely no mandate to do otherwise.

We must as well abolish elections full stop.

But how does that fly with your comment about getting the best people for the job regardless of the political party they were in? Genuinely, I'm interested because I thought that Brown's idea for getting the GOATs (Government of all talents) was quite a smart move. Get business men and women, scientists, military etc etc into real positions of power where their expertise could be used.

I'm tired and need to go to bed but look forward to hearing what you thought of that scheme? It's what I had in mind when I was using your wuote about best people regardless of political persuasion.

 

[clapham_gull]

because there is a large group in the population that are generally apathetic to daily politics but will vote for the general election. its not that they are easily led so much, just if they have little idea either way they take note of their daily paper.



i dont think that can happen here can it? you can get a majority in parliment with far less than 50% of the popular vote, but thats very different. I think in the US you can loose the popular vote and win due to the make up of the electrol college (sp?), but im pretty sure here if you got 50% of the vote you'd return with a massive majority.

I understand it is still technically possible to get more votes than any other party but not gain power. I may be wrong, but it's not my main point.

Put it another way - a party can have many many votes distributed across many constituencies for the purpose of frankly nothing.

I've always liked the idea of having constituency and "popular vote" MPs.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

At Uni I did a paper on "The Sun Won It" crap that they claimed in 92 after Major won. The majority of Sun readers voted Labour in that election, no more no less than usual.

As a Labour supporter I would probably vote Lim Dems in this election unless Brown goes. He's a f***ing disaster. Truth is, there's probably a large number of people who will vote Tory who would rather vote Lib Dem but see it as a wasted vote. That's a real shame

 

[clapham_gull]

But how does that fly with your comment about getting the best people for the job regardless of the political party they were in?

As long as they are elected. I bored with party politics full stop. If the best man for the job of Chancellor is elected as an MP, then I don't really see the problem with him having the chance to have that job irrespective of what "party" he has tatooed on his arm.

 

[clapham_gull]

At Uni I did a paper on "The Sun Won It" crap that they claimed in 92 after Major won. The majority of Sun readers voted Labour in that election, no more no less than usual.

That's a very good point I'd forgotten.

 

[Pavilionaire]

If this parliament was a football match the Tories are 3-0 up courtesy of 3 Labour own goals.

It angers me that the Tories are being handed the next election on a plate. The only matter of interest remains whether Labour can sink so low the Lib Dems - under a pretty decent leader in Clegg with decent team around him to boot - can win enough seats to make a hung Parliament a possibility.

Having watched Clegg last week I was impressed, and today's Sun leader in the middle of the Labour conference can only give the Lib Dems encouragement.

A dead duck Scottish one-eyed idiot or an Etonian lightweight? Bring on the leadership head-to-head...