ISIS have apparently burned the Jordanian pilot alive

[wellquickwoody]

What's with the bizarre 6th form references, you've got no idea who I am.
If you want to debate, let's debate. Keep your ridiculously immature insults to yourself.

In your above post, you've kind of got it correct, but somewhere along the lines someone's misread or miss-interpreted the argument, maybe I've miss-typed.

What I previously posts was; ISIS aren't a true reflection of Muslims/Islam, in the same way that the WBC aren't a true reflection on Baptists/Christians and Zionists aren't a true reflection on Judaism.

They are all terror groups, creating chaos and violence 'in the name of _________ ".

The argument is, ISIS aren't true Muslims as they don't behave and have the ideals that the vast majority of Muslims do.
The same above statement goes for Boko Haram , BBS, WBC, KKK etc, etc.

If you disagree with any of the above, talk. I'd be genuinely interested to see if people disagree with that and why.

I really don't care if they are true Muslims, lieing Muslims, slightly bent Muslims or whatever other kind of Muslim you care to dream up. What they are is Islamic extremists who carry out atrocities in the name of the prophet Mohammed. The use Islam as their basis for their own babaric, medieval standards and make it fit into THEIR ideals rather than change their own behavior to suit the religous teachings.

Either way, ISIS are still Muslims.

 

[Buzzer]

Good to hear that you're agreeing that they're not representative of muslims.

I've been arguing that we don't have the right to say they aren't 'true Muslims' just because they are extremist. I've also argued that quite clearly that religion plays a huge part in the ISIS aims and ambitions. I never said they were 'representative' of other Muslims either here or elsewhere and I'd add it's a nonsense to say that there is a single 'true representation' because as with all major faiths there are so many different beliefs.

 

[StonehamPark]

I think you nead the bare in mind this is someone who thinks dropping a nuke is a good idea !

I'll say it again, there's no good alternative that will work, in my opinion.
Either drag it out over 10 years, cost the tax-payer millions/billions and come home a decade later and as "wtf was that all for"?

Or just get it done and over with.

Again, there's no good outcome in war.

 

[User removed 4]

Cheers, Bushy.
If you can, take a look at post #186 above and let me know your thoughts?
Be honest as I don't know if I'm going mad or not?!

I will have a look mate but I think it deserves a proper reply and I'm busy now so will do it later.

 

[StonehamPark]

I really don't care if they are true Muslims, lieing Muslims, slightly bent Muslims or whatever other kind of Muslim you care to dream up. What they are is Islamic extremists who carry out atrocities in the name of the prophet Mohammed. The use Islam as their basis for their own babaric, medieval standards and make it fit into THEIR ideals rather than change their own behavior to suit the religous teachings.

Either way, ISIS are still Muslims.

The point is: "ISIS aren't a true reflection of Muslims/Islam". It's in the text that you quoted.
That's all.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

I agree with that, most Muslim's do not behead unbelievers after all. But ISIS are clearly Muslim, anyone saying otherwise is being deliberately disingenuous.

It's a hard point to argue that these people haven't been brainwashed by using religion.
Although i think the religion that is used is more to do with geography than the basic tenets of that religion, that whole area has had problems for a long time now that has lead up to where we are. Christianity could also be used and has been used in the past as a vehicle for this type of behaviour. Blaming that particular religion also seems disingenuous. (not claiming that you are).

 

[Triggaaar]

OK, fair enough, but you did say this:

I wan't these guys wiped out just as much as anyone but don't bring religion into it. They're not true Muslims.

Not my job to speak for Stoneham, but I think he means something like 'I wan't these guys wiped out just as much as anyone but don't bring religion into it. They don't represent Muslims, they just happen to be Muslim.'

They are nutters and could equally be Christians, just as there have been many mad Christians in history. The majority of Muslims in the world don't support their views, so don't tar them all with the same brush.

 

[Soulman]

Err, they have, you not been watching the news?
Pilot was from JORDAN, KURDISH and IRAQ troops fighting.

You seem blind in certain aspects.

Did you not notice i stated "vast majority ". I meant the other countries in the Middle East with those vast majorities to sort it out....if they want peace, mind you they have many countries to sort out.

 

[pastafarian]

But they are. They're fanatical Muslims. I will agree that we shouldn't be tarring all Muslims with the same brush, but I'd have thought the best way to do this in this country is for these people need to be confronted and challenged by moderates in the Mosques to prevent them gaining any sort of foothold. I think that takes courage to be honest.

which brings up an uncomfortable point with regards to this country.
what to do with fanatical muslims. Take case in point everyones favourite **** Anjem Choudary. On a daily basis his is talking about how apostates can be killed,how there is no freedom or democracy under Islam,how people can be killed for insulting the prophet,how members of the army or police can be killed for fighting or spying against muslims,how man made law is illegal and sharia must be implemented in the UK. All unsavoury stuff and yet he gets he spout it day after day on the internet and on tv(mostly abroad now). The difference is other radicals were calling for people to do this and quite rightly then find themselves in prison. Choudary only bangs on how the Quran speaks of these matters and justifies them. The thing is he is quite right.The quran does justify these things and quite openly.So you cant prosecute him for having the freedom to follow his religion,he doesnt actually tell people to go and kill apostates just that its justified according to his holy book,which begs the question how do moderate muslims in this country defeat people like Choudary when it means you are also asking them to speak out against their religion.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The point is: "ISIS aren't a true reflection of Muslims/Islam". It's in the text that you quoted.
That's all.

You continue calling black 'white', and vice versa, see how far it gets you.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Either way, ISIS are still Muslims.

ISIS are terrorists and evil. Strange to primarily identify them with a lot of people who have got nothing to do it.

 

[Simster]

Not my job to speak for Stoneham, but I think he means something like 'I wan't these guys wiped out just as much as anyone but don't bring religion into it. They don't represent Muslims, they just happen to be Muslim.'

They are nutters and could equally be Christians, just as there have been many mad Christians in history. The majority of Muslims in the world don't support their views, so don't tar them all with the same brush.

Err, I'm not tarring them with the same brush. I was merely arguing that these extremists are indeed true Muslims.

As for your comments on arms, if it was true that it won't work (an assertion you make without providing any evidence), then it makes a mockery of *any* sort of control on the arms industry.

 

[Buzzer]

how do moderate muslims in this country defeat people like Choudary

I think I have the solution that would make everyone happy. You know they banned those groups of lads that stand behind the Sky Sports journalists on deadline day? You make it law that if Choudhary wants to speak in public then there's got to be a group of teenage lads from Stoke or Liverpool or Hackney making wanker signs behind him.

Choudhary would get record audiences, no-one would bother listening to him and the rest of us get a good laugh. It's difficult to take a fundamentailst preacher seriously when he's got a spotty teen kid trying to shove a purple dildo in his ear.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

which brings up an uncomfortable point with regards to this country.
what to do with fanatical muslims. Take case in point everyones favourite **** Anjem Choudary.

I have wondered why he is still 'out there'. I'm sure we could have gotten him on 'hate speech' charges by now.

Maybe they don't want to give him the publicity.
Maybe they use him as one of those electric fly catchers, to follow potential jihadists. If you've watched 5 of his videos, a flag goes up on the intelligence services computers...

 

[pastafarian]

ISIS are terrorists and evil. Strange to primarily identify them with a lot of people who have got nothing to do it.

is the correct terminology then "ISIS are muslim terrorists" as opposed to "ISIS are muslims"

 

[Triggaaar]

Take case in point everyones favourite **** Anjem Choudary. On a daily basis his is talking about how apostates can be killed,how there is no freedom or democracy under Islam,how people can be killed for insulting the prophet,how members of the army or police can be killed for fighting or spying against muslims,how man made law is illegal and sharia must be implemented in the UK

But sharia law isn't very specific, it's down to interpretation, and that interpretation is therefore man made.

 

[The Spanish]

Religion is a great manipulator, and those who want to manipulate others are the ones who spread the word to feed their ego and superiority complex. The Lord is not our sheppard but religion is full of sheepdogs, sheep and flocks.

Whatever the religion is, it is all based on the same format and to control the masses. Unfortunately for them it is they who need to be controlled.

this simply isnt true. there are many religions that are far more introspective and based on spiritual growth, rather than punitive laws and codes of behaviour enforced to the degree of the abrahamic ones we are more familiar with . most admittedly incorporate ritual and other commons aspects, that appear to be far more inate programmed behaviour to humans than we are smart enough to realise. but all religions are not based on the same format at all.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

is the correct terminology then "ISIS are muslim terrorists" as opposed to "ISIS are muslims"

I personally wouldn't identify them with muslims, they are, but they are so far from being representative of 1/4 of the worlds population, that (as shown on this board) quite a lot of people are too stupid to realise this.
Which in a small way helps the terrorists goals, by disenfranchising young moderates making them more recruitable when an episode of mental illness comes along.

 

[StonehamPark]

I've just read back through and it's pretty crap seeing 3-4 sub-arguments going on, despite us all agreeing on the fundamental issues.
We all condemn ISIS for their acts, especially the most recent one.
We all agree that ISIS must be dealt with.

The only major issue now is how they are dealt with. This is the tricky issue here.

 

[Triggaaar]

Err, I'm not tarring them with the same brush. I was merely arguing that these extremists are indeed true Muslims.

I wasn't saying you were, I was merely saying what I think Stoneham meant by his comment.

As for your comments on arms, if it was true that it won't work (an assertion you make without providing any evidence), then it makes a mockery of *any* sort of control on the arms industry.

I don't think you can stop light arms getting to the middle east because they've got so much money and the world is so big that someone will provide them, whether legally or not. It would also be tricky to tell countries that they're not allowed to defend themselves, and the ones that would follow the rules would become defenseless against those that don't. Of course there is no evidence of a ban of that size working or not, nothing like that has ever happened. That doesn't mean that no attempt should be made to control the arms industry.