Hillsborough

[Beach Hut]

.. and the amount of fans that turned up without tickets was concluded as being as insignificant as it was at other sporting events.

I't gives the implication that the game was a huge sell out, when in reality tickets were still available on the day.

Doesn't stop people continuing to spout untruths about it....

.... even on here.

Precisely I purchased two tickets for £6 outside Villa Park on that day for Everton v Norwich

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Being packed in like sardines in the North Stand during big games and especially at Highbury in 83 brings it home now how close we were to something similar happening when the crowd used to surge forwards. Terracing is safe in football grounds when the numbers of fans standing on them are controlled , whereas all seater stadia have taken away part of the atmosphere of watching the game.

 

[Evil Edna]

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[Twinkle Toes]

To everybody here who has respected this tragedy as just that - a tragedy: you're words have done yourselves & our club proud. To those who still choose to ignore the facts - & worse still use this thread as an opportunity to gob-off with your twisted bile: you disgrace yourselves & the rest of your fellow Albion supporters. Most of all though, you disgrace the memory of those 96 football supporters who lost their lives on that dreadful day at Hillsborough. I hope you eventually live long enough to feel even a little bit of the shame I personally think you should.

May those poor victims forever rest in peace. I will never forget you; your grieving loved-ones; or the shocking scenes I witnessed: as I sat down to enjoy a bit of footie on that beautiful April day.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

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I assume it's an error by the maker of that video that there's an image from Heysel on it (5:09).

Yesterday's Football Focus got it about right, I thought, well apart from the vox pop with the Liverpool fan who stated there had never been any trouble at Liverpool games prior to Hillsborough.

I do think it brought it home that that tragedy could have happened at any major football stadium in the country given a particular set of circumstances. Such was the nature of football, fans, stadia and policing at the time.

 

[junior]

Just out of interest,i wondered if anyone has any personal experiences of going back there since it happenend? Being a *bad fan* i dont know how often we've played Sheff Weds since,but im assuming we have (championship season?).
Its one of a handful of grounds ive never been to and i think if i did i would find it very strange sitting in a seat watching a fottball match knowing that 96 people died in that exact spot.
Is the leppings lane end the away end?

Personaly i think i'd probably have to just stand there for a moment at the end of that tunnel and have a few thoughts to myself.Anyone else ever sone similar? Whats it like?

I remember being sat at my grandparents watching it happen live on television.It will stick with me as one of only 3 days so far in my lifetime that i "remember what i was doing that day",along side 9/11 and Princess Dianna's death.I was 6 years old and dont remember anything else in my life that happened much before i was 10.

 

[phil1977]

Football Focus did a good job of explaining what happened. The bit where Alan Hanson asking a fan to get off the pitch only to be told that fans were dying behind the goal, hit hard.

I was eleven at the time and still remember that day vividly. Happily though, I'm sure, nothing like that tragic event will ever happen again in my life time.

PS. Anyone who makes jokes about Hillsborough should be instantly banned!!!

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Just out of interest,i wondered if anyone has any personal experiences of going back there since it happenend? Being a *bad fan* i dont know how often we've played Sheff Weds since,but im assuming we have (championship season?).
Its one of a handful of grounds ive never been to and i think if i did i would find it very strange sitting in a seat watching a fottball match knowing that 96 people died in that exact spot.
Is the leppings lane end the away end?

Yes, it is, but they don't call it that any more.

Never went there before the disaster, but I went up the last time the Albion played there a few seasons ago. It's completely different now, I was aware before going in that it was the same end where the crush took place, but in all honesty I can't say I gave it too much thought once we'd gone in. No disrespect intended, of course, but it just doesn't feel like the same place. Perhaps because football, like life, has moved on so much.

My feelings at Hillsborough were no different to my views the last time I went to Valley Parade- vaguely aware of something having gone on, but without necessarily going too deeply into what (is it me or does the Bradford fire tragedy get a little forgotten by comparison?).

 

[clapham_gull]

Yes, it is, but they don't call it that any more.

Never went there before the disaster, but I went up the last time the Albion played there a few seasons ago. It's completely different now, I was aware before going in that it was the same end where the crush took place, but in all honesty I can't say I gave it too much thought once we'd gone in. No disrespect intended, of course, but it just doesn't feel like the same place. Perhaps because football, like life, has moved on so much.

My feelings at Hillsborough were no different to my views the last time I went to Valley Parade- vaguely aware of something having gone on, but without necessarily going too deeply into what (is it me or does the Bradford fire tragedy get a little forgotten by comparison?).

It's an interesting point about the fire, but I recall them both myself.

I suspect Hillsborough has had more subsequent publicity because:

1) There has been an ongoing campaign by the families to have what really happened recognised.

2) There has many other "stories" created by it, i.e. the Sun coverage and their relatively recent apology, the Rooney controversy when he sold his story to the Sun.

3) It led to the Taylor report and a massive change in the way we watch football in this country.

 

[phil1977]

It's interesting that Ibrox, Bradford and Hillsborough (and to a certain extent Heysel) tragedies were caused by stadia design, i.e. wooden stands, long cramped staircases and perimeter fencing.

It's funny how the authorities only acted on to radically improve safety after these disasters. It seems that many grounds were potential death traps until then. The Thatcher goverment, at the time, spend a lot of time trying to sort out hooliganism and not enough improving ground safety (feel free to disagree.) Though on the other hand, hindsight is an amazing thing.

 

[Beach Hut]

I would say Heysel was completely different and a lot more due to disorganisation.

I actually watched that game in Arenal and the pre-match pictures showed it really kicking off outside with running battles and no police presence on Spanish TV which I believe were not shown on British TV.

The problems at Heysel stemmed from a lot of fans having tickets in the wrong end.

The police lost control as was seen by the total chaos where the wall collapsed and also the Juve fans completely at liberty to cause mayhem from their end.

Ibrox / Hillsborough was overcrowding, Bradford a fire.

 

[champion7]

Hillsborough Remembered is on the History channel Wed at 8oclock.

 

[phil1977]

I would say Heysel was completely different and a lot more due to disorganisation.

I actually watched that game in Arenal and the pre-match pictures showed it really kicking off outside with running battles and no police presence on Spanish TV which I believe were not shown on British TV.

The problems at Heysel stemmed from a lot of fans having tickets in the wrong end.

The police lost control as was seen by the total chaos where the wall collapsed and also the Juve fans completely at liberty to cause mayhem from their end.

Ibrox / Hillsborough was overcrowding, Bradford a fire.

I totally agree with you Beach Hut. Maybe I should have said the stadia involved had a partial impact on those disasters. However Heysel was in a extremely poor state, crumbling terraces which in turn made lumps of concrete perfect missile material and chicken wire segregration.

Am I right in saying selling alcohol/ drinking on the terraces in English grounds was only banned after Heysel? I might be wrong but that would seem incredible if true!!

 

[Grendel]

Hillsborough happened, not because of the design of the stadium, but because of the huge number of Liverpool fans that turned up without a ticket trying to blag their way in. Yes the police made mistakes, and once these fans were inside it was carnage, BUT if they hadn't been there in the first place it would never have happened.

The Taylor reports chose to ignore this "fact", presumably? Or is it that you're spouting ill-informed rubbish about a tragedy? Ninety six fans went to watch their team play and didn't come back, and your response is to repeat long discredited tabloid lies? That's very, very sad.

 

[Beach Hut]

I totally agree with you Beach Hut. Maybe I should have said the stadia involved had a partial impact on those disasters. However Heysel was in a extremely poor state, crumbling terraces which in turn made lumps of concrete perfect missile material and chicken wire segregration.

Am I right in saying selling alcohol/ drinking on the terraces in English grounds was only banned after Heysel? I might be wrong but that would seem incredible if true!!

I think you may be right. Heysel was a disgrace and in no fit state to have the European Cup Final.

Unfortunately the disorganisation and inept policing failed a situation where two sets of fans were hell bent on a fighting spree that just got totally out of control.

If you saw the post match interviews with other hardened fans from Chelsea, Millwall and West Ham the consensus was no-one deseved to die and actually Thatcher was correct in banning all English clubs from Europe.

To this day many Everton fans have never forgiven Liverpool for what happened as they were likely to win the next European Cup.

 

[phil1977]

I agree, Thatcher got it right by banning English clubs (only for a year I think and extended by UEFA by another four.) When was the last time one could sample an alcoholic beverage inside the Goldstone? I know I'm deviating from the thread, I'm just very interested to know

 

[clapham_gull]

The Taylor reports chose to ignore this "fact", presumably? Or is it that you're spouting ill-informed rubbish about a tragedy? Ninety six fans went to watch their team play and didn't come back, and your response is to repeat long discredited tabloid lies? That's very, very sad.

I'm sure the apologies will appear below at some point.

 

[champion7]

Call me a wanker if you like but i don't think about who's fault it was,all i think about is that 96 people died that shouldn't have.

 

[clapham_gull]

To answer your question...

Why? What exactly did I say there that was wrong?

.. and disprove your response

Absolutely right. There is a recurring theme in so many football disasters/incidents. Liverpool FC.

Here we go....

..officers at the turnstiles denied there were a large number of ticketless supporters. SWFC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity. The HSE also conclusively proved there was no substance to ... allegations.

As part of their analysis, the HSE counted the number of LFC supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis.

Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people.

Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster.

Nice little read if you can either be bothered.

http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/4HFDContext-n-Consequences.pdf

It even has references to the Taylor Report.

The policeman who made the original allegation was man enough enough later to apologise for his statements that the fans were to blame. As was the Sun newspaper, but many years later.

Possibly both of you could follow their lead ?

 

[ROSM]

We seem to have this debate every year around the Hillsborough anniversary - I'm sure we did last year anyway.

Every time someone comes out with the usual 'ticketless fans' 'drunk scousers' posts. And every time someone makes the effort to do the research, provide the detail and show that the at ones stage England's most senior Judge (Justice Taylor) found no evidence to back up any of the allegation that these so called 'factors' caused or even contributed to the tragedy.

As I posted on here during a previous debate - the South Yorkshire Police commenced their deception at 3.15pm on the day of the incident when Graham kelly from the FA was told that the Liverpool fans had 'forced the gate open'. This was from the police officer who it was later proved had given the order to open the gate. A few days later a 'source from South Yorkshire police' gave a briefing to the press association that included the allegations which the Sun (and the Star as well) reported as 'The Truth'. All of those allegations were proven to be false!