[Football] Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield will go on trial *** Not Guilty ***

[Spiros]

What a shame, the fight for justice goes on, still no closure for the families.

But isn't justice seeing someone accused of a crime being tried according to the evidence in court in front of a jury? Surely that applies to a copper just as it does for everyone else. The conclusion can only be that although some serious mistakes were made they didn't amount to a criminal act.

In my view although it doesn't feel satisfactory justice has been done.

 

[The Large One]

It would have been a tough call to blame one man for the loss of so many people when there were so many other contributory factors and others also at fault. I could never understand why Hillsborough continued to be used by the fa at a time where more suitable, safe venues were becoming available. Fences penning fans in with no hope of escape. Health and safety came far too late for so many.

Doesn’t give the relatives much in terms of closure though. I feel for them.

No-one is blaming 'one man'. He was being tried for his part in it, which was a fairly large part, admittedly.

Others would have been tried for their part had there not been at 24-year Establishment cover-up (and it was an Establishment cover-up), and many of the protagonists not died in the intervening years.

 

[The Large One]

But isn't justice seeing someone accused of a crime being tried according to the evidence in court in front of a jury? Surely that applies to a copper just as it does for everyone else. The conclusion can only be that although some serious mistakes were made they didn't amount to a criminal act.

In my view although it doesn't feel satisfactory justice has been done.

This seeks to presume the law can act in a moral way.

This excellent summing up from David Conn is a must-read, as it explains how poor the CPS' approach was, and how the law allowed Duckenfield to repeat his claims - the ones the Second Inquest had already proved in law to be lies.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-left-hillsborough-families-distraught-again?

 

[vegster]

No-one is blaming 'one man'. He was being tried for his part in it, which was a fairly large part, admittedly.

Others would have been tried for their part had there not been at 24-year Establishment cover-up (and it was an Establishment cover-up), and many of the protagonists not died in the intervening years.

Bloody Sunday and Orgreave are just two more examples, " the more things change, the more they stay the same "

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

But isn't justice seeing someone accused of a crime being tried according to the evidence in court in front of a jury? Surely that applies to a copper just as it does for everyone else. The conclusion can only be that although some serious mistakes were made they didn't amount to a criminal act.

In my view although it doesn't feel satisfactory justice has been done.

If you read the link posted by TLO, l think unsatisfactory is an understatement
, the families have been shafted again. It is not what I call justice.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

I was very surprised that he got off. It seemed clearly established that the Police were grossly at fault and as Commander, the buck stops with him.
The most shocking thing to me was the official cover up and the lies they told and I recall reading that police officers doctored their reports to divert blame onto the supporters.
For years I personally held the Liverpool fans responsible, because that was what we were told. I do not trust officialdom and the authorities in the same way now.
NB.. The link to The Guardian newspaper is indeed worth a read.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I was very surprised that he got off. It seemed clearly established that the Police were grossly at fault and as Commander, the buck stops with him.
The most shocking thing to me was the official cover up and the lies they told and I recall reading that police officers doctored their reports to divert blame onto the supporters.
For years I personally held the Liverpool fans responsible, because that was what we were told. I do not trust officialdom and the authorities in the same way now.
NB.. The link to The Guardian newspaper is indeed worth a read.

I sort of look it like this. IFI was driving down the road and a car came in the opposite direction and I had to take a judgement call to swerve to avoid a crash my instinct would to be so. But I hadn’t seen the car coming up on my blind side, and killed its driver. Yes, it would be my fault but I had to no choice but to swerve. Alright, not exactly the same, but hope you get my point.
Duckenfield admitted to not considering the consequences of letting people out of one crush into what proved to be another as a result of not shutting off the gates to the terraces. He has to live with that - he must have had a shit life.

With the number of people there, who knows what would have happened
A. If he hadn’t opened the first lot of gates
B. If he let them in and had closed the gates to the terraces.
Either way there would have been a bottleneck that would have been disastrous.

I agree that the follow up activity of the police is a big issue that needs prosecution. I also think the whole process of giving an unfit ground a ticket to put on a semi - Sheffield and the FA and possibly the local council should all be prosecuted. Whether that is for manslaughter or some other appropriate charge.

 

[Spiros]

If you read the link posted by TLO, l think unsatisfactory is an understatement
, the families have been shafted again. It is not what I call justice.

But have the families been shafted because Duckenfield was found not guilty or because he was the only one in the dock? Why should one man be the scapegoat for failings beyond his control? If he had been solely and deliberately responsible for all that happened then he would more likely been found guilty but he was only one contributor who made what he thought was the right decision at the time. It seems to me that some want to see Duckenfield in jail because their idea of justice is that someone got locked up for it, not whether he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt of a crime in the eyes of our own laws

 

[Bold Seagull]

I was very surprised that he got off. It seemed clearly established that the Police were grossly at fault and as Commander, the buck stops with him.
The most shocking thing to me was the official cover up and the lies they told and I recall reading that police officers doctored their reports to divert blame onto the supporters.
For years I personally held the Liverpool fans responsible, because that was what we were told. I do not trust officialdom and the authorities in the same way now.
NB.. The link to The Guardian newspaper is indeed worth a read.

The thing is in law, mistakes, errors, misjudgements, poor performance are allowable human errors that don't necessarily amount to gross negligence. The burden of proof or evidence for gross negligence is a test beyond simple incompetence. Dunkenfield should have faced disciplinary proceedings etc. for his failings, but those amounting to gross negligence is a far greater test. That is why his defence in court can admit all his mistakes and errors on the day, but for those to amount to gross negligence, there is another level of proof that these were caused by wilful or knowing acts of his that defied established procedure and policy. Had there been a document he should have read on the day that spelt out actions to be taken at the Leppings Lane End, or not to be taken, and he willfully ignored those and it was known he must have read them, then that is the type of burden of proof for gross negligence.

 

[Durlston]

I feel shattered for the bereaved families and friends of the Hillsborough disaster victims. The dignity they've shown in all the 30 years has been absolutely incredible.

It would be a lovely touch to have a big banner tomorrow with something along the lines of 'Seagulls will always support your search for justice'.

Or a few chants of "Duckenfield's a w*nker, Duckenfield's a w*nker la la la la, la la la la".

 

[wellquickwoody]

I feel shattered for the bereaved families and friends of the Hillsborough disaster victims. The dignity they've shown in all the 30 years has been absolutely incredible.

It would be a lovely touch to have a big banner tomorrow with something along the lines of 'Seagulls will always support your search for justice'.

Or a few chants of "Duckenfield's a w*nker, Duckenfield's a w*nker la la la la, la la la la".

Please, grow up, so unnecessary.

In my opinion the court judgement was correct. Did the Police make errors? In hindsight, yes. Was the ground fit for purpose? Probably not. Were there other contributory factors? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Did Duckenfield intentionally cause the deaths of 96 people? No. Were any of the victims other than innocent? No.

What was the cause? A mixture of police errors, poor stadium design/condition, football culture, and many other things.

I wish the families of the bereaved nothing but peace, but I hope this will be the end of the witch hunt. I rather doubt that it will be though.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Please, grow up, so unnecessary.

In my opinion the court judgement was correct. Did the Police make errors? In hindsight, yes. Was the ground fit for purpose? Probably not. Were there other contributory factors? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Did Duckenfield intentionally cause the deaths of 96 people? No. Were any of the victims other than innocent? No.

What was the cause? A mixture of police errors, poor stadium design/condition, football culture, and many other things.

I wish the families of the bereaved nothing but peace, but I hope this will be the end of the witch hunt. I rather doubt that it will be though.

This...….

Durlston just out of interest who would you phone if your house was burgled?

This was a tragic event, but as WQW points hope lets hope this is the end of the witch hunt.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Please, grow up, so unnecessary.

In my opinion the court judgement was correct. Did the Police make errors? In hindsight, yes. Was the ground fit for purpose? Probably not. Were there other contributory factors? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Did Duckenfield intentionally cause the deaths of 96 people? No. Were any of the victims other than innocent? No.

What was the cause? A mixture of police errors, poor stadium design/condition, football culture, and many other things.

I wish the families of the bereaved nothing but peace, but I hope this will be the end of the witch hunt. I rather doubt that it will be though.

The charge wasn't intentionally causing the deaths of 95 people (the lad that died months later wasn't included). That would be murder.

A court of law found that 95 people were unlawfully killed. That is a verdict.
The charge was negligently causing the deaths of 95 people. There was negligence, of that was no doubt.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The charge wasn't intentionally causing the deaths of 95 people (the lad that died months later wasn't included). That would be murder.

A court of law found that 95 people were unlawfully killed. That is a verdict.
The charge was negligently causing the deaths of 95 people. There was negligence, of that was no doubt.

An error was made. Did that error ALONE cause the death of 96 people?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

An error was made. Did that error ALONE cause the death of 96 people?

A succession of errors were made, not just one. It was gross negligence.
The jury has decided that one man wasn't to blame.

South Yorkshire police have a reputation for ignoring the truth in lots of different situations.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The jury has decided that one man wasn't to blame.

So your point is?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[tweet]1200314981893451776[/tweet]

 

[perseus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield has been found not guilty of the gross negligence manslaughter of 95 Liverpool fans in the 1989 disaster.

Former South Yorkshire Police Ch Supt Duckenfield, 75, was cleared after a seven-week retrial at Preston Crown Court.

Mr Duckenfield, now of Ferndown, Dorset, was in charge of the FA Cup semi-final at which 96 Liverpool fans died.

I would have been shocked at any other verdict.

cf: Shoreham Airshow crash pilot acquitted over deaths

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47495885

 

[wellquickwoody]

So your point is?

[tweet]1200314981893451776[/tweet]

Politely I repeat, what is YOUR point?

 

[Da Man Clay]

Jury got it right IMO. Duckenfield alone is not responsible for gross negligence manslaughter. The reason 96 people died was not down to a single poor decision by him.