Hillsborough disaster - nineteen years ago today

[Beach Hut]

I was at Villa Park that day as I was living in Birmingham for the Everton v Norwich semi-final which Everton won and there were loads more Everton than Norwich.

At half time it was announced the other semi had not started due to "security reasons".

As we left the ground the awful truth started to unfold and it was one of the worst days ever for football. My girlfriend (now wife) and I sat stunned in front of the TV as we lived a mile or so from Villa Park after the game.

I was mortified by the scenes I saw and what I read afterwards it was truly terrible. And worse followed with the tabloid spat between the Sun and Merseyside that was so disgraceful Douglas Hurd the Home Secretary at the time intervened.

There is nothing really positive that ever comes out of this and there were many serious errors of judgement that caused this tragedy.

RIP - those that died you will never be forgotten.

And the legacy was to move to all seater stadiums which was and remains the right way to watch football.

 

[Easy 10]

And the legacy was to move to all seater stadiums which was and remains the right way to watch football.

Do you really believe that ? Cos I think its cobblers. Terracing IS perfectly safe if its policed properly inside and outside the ground. It was the jaw-droppingly incompetent decision to open the gates to the Leppings Lane end of the ground that was the primary cause of the disaster.

 

[Simster]

Do you really believe that ? Cos I think its cobblers. Terracing IS perfectly safe if its policed properly inside and outside the ground. It was the jaw-droppingly incompetent decision to open the gates to the Leppings Lane end of the ground that was the primary cause of the disaster.

Plus the decision by the FA to give the Kop end to Forest fans leaving the bin dippers with Leppings Lane, plus the decision by various authorities NOT to have a cordon several hundred yards up the road past which only ticket holders would have been allowed to pass. Oh and the small fact that several hundred pissed-up scousers (many without tickets) tried to break down the gate at that end so as to get in. Although obviously we're not allowed to mention them because fun loving scousers never ever do anything wrong.

 

[edna krabappel]

I'm still not convinced by the argument that terracing is inherently unsafe.

The Hillsborough disaster was the culmination of years of neglect surrounding football, and a build up of circumstances on the day- and could have happened whichever team had that end of the ground.

Football fans have always turned up late for games, and even if Forest had had the Leppings Lane end, who's to say there still wouldn't have been thousands milling around outside ten minutes before kick off?

Stadiums back then were in shocking conditions compared to now, with football fans branded thugs by the Government, and little financial input. But the unavoidable truth is that the Hillsborough disaster occurred because too many people were squeezed into too small an area. Tell me how many other major disasters have occurred in the UK under similar circumstances? It's simply a matter of regulating how many people get in, surely.

There are far better crowd control measures in place these days, and the authorities are trained to look for potential crush spots. Lewes bonfire is a good example- there's a basic rule of thumb to spot when a particular area is getting too crowded and people are at risk of crushing.

The fact is, whatever the rights and wrongs of the Liverpool fans that day, nobody would have died on that terrace without a catastrophically ill-judged decision by the Superintendent in charge of the ground operation. I'm sure he made it with the best of intentions, but when it comes down to it, that gate being opened is why there were so many people there, and that is why those at the front got crushed. Whether people would have been crushed outside the ground if he hadn't done it is something we'll never know.

I'm sure the guy (Duckenfield??) will carry the weight of it to his grave, whatever was said at the enquiry.

 

[Brighton till i die]

And the legacy was to move to all seater stadiums which was and remains the right way to watch football.

come off it mate

 

[Easy 10]

Plus the decision by the FA to give the Kop end to Forest fans leaving the bin dippers with Leppings Lane, plus the decision by various authorities NOT to have a cordon several hundred yards up the road past which only ticket holders would have been allowed to pass. Oh and the small fact that several hundred pissed-up scousers (many without tickets) tried to break down the gate at that end so as to get in. Although obviously we're not allowed to mention them because fun loving scousers never ever do anything wrong.

Agreed, it was a combination of factors that converged to cause it, culminating in the gates being opened. Hillsborough was a COMPLETELY avoidable disaster. Blaming it on the terracing is like blaming a faulty tail-light for a head-on smash.

 

[Dandyman]

I'm still not convinced by the argument that terracing is inherently unsafe.

The Hillsborough disaster was the culmination of years of neglect surrounding football, and a build up of circumstances on the day- and could have happened whichever team had that end of the ground.

Football fans have always turned up late for games, and even if Forest had had the Leppings Lane end, who's to say there still wouldn't have been thousands milling around outside ten minutes before kick off?

Stadiums back then were in shocking conditions compared to now, with football fans branded thugs by the Government, and little financial input. But the unavoidable truth is that the Hillsborough disaster occurred because too many people were squeezed into too small an area. Tell me how many other major disasters have occurred in the UK under similar circumstances? It's simply a matter of regulating how many people get in, surely.

There are far better crowd control measures in place these days, and the authorities are trained to look for potential crush spots. Lewes bonfire is a good example- there's a basic rule of thumb to spot when a particular area is getting too crowded and people are at risk of crushing.

The fact is, whatever the rights and wrongs of the Liverpool fans that day, nobody would have died on that terrace without a catastrophically ill-judged decision by the Superintendent in charge of the ground operation. I'm sure he made it with the best of intentions, but when it comes down to it, that gate being opened is why there were so many people there, and that is why those at the front got crushed. Whether people would have been crushed outside the ground if he hadn't done it is something we'll never know.

I'm sure the guy (Duckenfield??) will carry the weight of it to his grave, whatever was said at the enquiry.

Excellent summing up as ever, Edna.

 

[ROSM]

The fact is, whatever the rights and wrongs of the Liverpool fans that day, nobody would have died on that terrace without a catastrophically ill-judged decision by the Superintendent in charge of the ground operation. I'm sure he made it with the best of intentions, but when it comes down to it, that gate being opened is why there were so many people there, and that is why those at the front got crushed. Whether people would have been crushed outside the ground if he hadn't done it is something we'll never know.

I'm sure the guy (Duckenfield??) will carry the weight of it to his grave, whatever was said at the enquiry.

A few years ago I studied this as part of some work I was doing with the Sir Norman Chester Centre for Football Studies.

There are some absolutely cataclysmic issues around the actions of Duckenfield et althat day. Their attempt to mislead, hide, smear etc started within minutes of the incident happening. When Graham Kelly of the FA went to the Police Control Box at 3.15, he was told that the fans had burst the door down. This statement came from the very man who had ORDERED the door to be open. The CCTV tapes which showed what the police in that box saw over their TV screens went 'missing' that afternoon.

The comments made by the Police officers at the Taylor Inquiry beggared belief. All of them were asked by the Government Barrister the same opening question which was,'how were fans who went through the tunnel advised that the pens in front of them were full and to move to the side?' They all provided almost word for word the same answer 'volumes find their own level'. One officer even likened it to bathwater.

If ever a set of statements underlined the contempt and dehumanising of football supporters by south yorkshire police, the attitude presented by their officers at the inquiry was them.

If you ever get a chance to see or hear Rogan Taylor (formerly off the FSA, also worked for the Chester Institute and also a Liverpool fan present at Hillsborough that day) speak on this topic, then please do so ( a documentary in which he was a lead speaker was shown on Liverpool TV on Sky last night that was made free to air to cover the Hillsborough anniversary).

Whatever your views on Liverpool fans (they may well now suffer a grief complex), all seater stadia (dont forget it was the presence of seats at Valley Parade that contributed to the numer of deaths there), the Police and so on, there is one set of undeniable facts. The families of those 96 have been deprived of justice and the british legal system and authorities did all it could to stop the truth and therefore the repurcussions, ever coming to the front.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh and the small fact that several hundred pissed-up scousers (many without tickets) tried to break down the gate at that end so as to get in. Although obviously we're not allowed to mention them because fun loving scousers never ever do anything wrong.

Of course, if The Albion were half as well supported and reached the Cup semi-final with a piss poor ticket allocation nobody would travel to the ground in the hope of getting tickets outside? And nobody would have a few beers would they?

 

[edna krabappel]

If ever a set of statements underlined the contempt and dehumanising of football supporters by south yorkshire police, the attitude presented by their officers at the inquiry was them.

The families of those 96 have been deprived of justice and the british legal system and authorities did all it could to stop the truth and therefore the repurcussions, ever coming to the front.

I agree with some elements of what you say- but I also think that in relation to the actions of the police, the officers on the ground were almost certainly reacting to (1) their instructions from the top and (2) their non-existent training in relation to crowd control and football stadiums in particular.

As I've said before, football in the 80s was in the Dark Ages compared to now. Fans were treated like the lowest of the low, probably as a by-product of the hooliganism that proliferated during that decade. I doubt very much that any of the PCs working that game had been given any guidance as to potential emergency situations, because nothing on that level had ever happened before, and football took it for granted it never would. It's easy to say now what SHOULD have happened, with the benefit of hindsight, and I'm not sure a few constables inside the stand could have done a lot to stop a tidal wave of fans bundling in once the gate was opened in any case. Again, bad decision making from those in control. The police at the front, seen pushing people back into the terrace- if their only previous exposure to football was seeing hooligans fighting and invading the pitch, then their natural- if misguided- reaction is going to be to keep them off the pitch, as per instructions. It's not until a few seconds later that they'll realise what's really going on.

In the same situation today, there would be measures in place to stop the build up outside in Leppings Lane. There would probably be checks on people coming to the game for tickets. Those who were deemed a bit pissed wouldn't be allowed in. And nobody would open a gate to let people in without any controls.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a minute suggesting that Hillsborough was anything other than a monumental cock-up, but hindsight is a marvellous thing, and football- including the authorities who policed it- had grown incredibly blase about it in 1989.

Incidentally (and this is an entirely genuine question), what do you consider "justice" would be in these circumstances?

And, if I can play devil's advocate for a second, is there such a thing as a "Justice For The Juventus 39" campaign?

 

[steward 433]

I agree with some elements of what you say- but I also think that in relation to the actions of the police, the officers on the ground were almost certainly reacting to (1) their instructions from the top and (2) their non-existent training in relation to crowd control and football stadiums in particular.

As I've said before, football in the 80s was in the Dark Ages compared to now. Fans were treated like the lowest of the low, probably as a by-product of the hooliganism that proliferated during that decade. I doubt very much that any of the PCs working that game had been given any guidance as to potential emergency situations, because nothing on that level had ever happened before, and football took it for granted it never would. It's easy to say now what SHOULD have happened, with the benefit of hindsight, and I'm not sure a few constables inside the stand could have done a lot to stop a tidal wave of fans bundling in once the gate was opened in any case. Again, bad decision making from those in control. The police at the front, seen pushing people back into the terrace- if their only previous exposure to football was seeing hooligans fighting and invading the pitch, then their natural- if misguided- reaction is going to be to keep them off the pitch, as per instructions. It's not until a few seconds later that they'll realise what's really going on.

In the same situation today, there would be measures in place to stop the build up outside in Leppings Lane. There would probably be checks on people coming to the game for tickets. Those who were deemed a bit pissed wouldn't be allowed in. And nobody would open a gate to let people in without any controls.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a minute suggesting that Hillsborough was anything other than a monumental cock-up, but hindsight is a marvellous thing, and football- including the authorities who policed it- had grown incredibly blase about it in 1989.

Incidentally (and this is an entirely genuine question), what do you consider "justice" would be in these circumstances?

And, if I can play devil's advocate for a second, is there such a thing as a "Justice For The Juventus 39" campaign?

Sad the day was indeed as i lost a relative in the crush!

But the Taylor report was correct in most things and a lot of things have improved since that fateful day.

I too disagree with the loss of the terraces as i grew up watching the Albion on the east terraces. The removal of the fencing in my opinion is the most common sense item that came out of the report along with the increase in fully trained stewards at all events.

I hope that world football never sees another tragedy like this again.

R.I.P all those from Hillsborough, Bradford and all the other disasters at football grounds over the years.

 

[Simster]

Of course, if The Albion were half as well supported and reached the Cup semi-final with a piss poor ticket allocation nobody would travel to the ground in the hope of getting tickets outside? And nobody would have a few beers would they?

Oh they probably would. But if somebody dared to suggest that there were several hundred Albion fans trying to bash the gates down, I suspect it would be taken on the chin to a point, rather than the entire city of Brighton & Hove furiously fuming at such an insensitive allogation and pointing the finger at everyone else.

As ROSM suggests, the South Yorks Police have rightly been hauled over the coals for this, but the reason their incompetence had fatal consequences was for several reasons including drunk ticketless fans trying to get in unlawfully.

 

[Storer68]

Incidentally (and this is an entirely genuine question), what do you consider "justice" would be in these circumstances?

QUOTE]

sorting this out would be a start

Solicitor's Negligence
After the Hillsborough Disaster, over 130 Solicitors were directed from above to form a steering committee of Solicitors who would in effect, monopolise any legal work on behalf of the bereaved families and traumatised survivors. This formation of a steering committee meant that the Government of the day, and the Police Lawyers, were able to monitor closely and scrutinise every shred of evidence which came from the families and survivors. This evidence was carefully selected and processed by, amongst other, police officers from the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, who were on non-operational duties and under investigation themselves.

The legal help offered by the Solicitors on the steering groups was, in many ways, an absolute disgrace. Some survivors never even saw their Solicitors and the compensation process for injury and trauma was done by post. Even worse is the way in which unemployed survivors were offered sums of £2,000 just before Christmas -maybe it's a coincidence, but Solicitors are cunning manipulators and it's hard to believe that many Solicitors didn't see Hillsborough as a simply money making opportunity. Many survivors felt that their own Solicitors treated them as if they had suffered a mere whiplash injury.

One of the Solicitors on the steering committee was Linskills of Bootle, Liverpool, who advised a traumatised survivor of Hillsborough , Peter Bromilow, to accept £3,000 in 1989, in a compensation claim against South Yorkshire Police Authority. The claim was for physical and psychological injury, including Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Given that Linskills knew that in 1989, they should have realised that counselling was urgently needed.

Peter Bromilow appeared on a TV show some years later, and after meeting a psychiatrist, he was advised to seek treatment for PTSD. Consequently, he decided to claim against Linskills for Professional Negligence, an extremely serious charge. The claim against Linskills was settled out of court, and not surprisingly, no one was available for comment when Peter Bromilow was awarded £50,000. The money will be held in Trust by Peter's Solicitor to pay for ongoing treatment. Peter Bromilow is a member of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign and we have hundreds more who have had similar experiences with Solicitors.

More recently, another member of the HJC, Eileen McBride, won a claim against the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police for psychological injury caused by her experiences at the Hillsborough Disaster. Eileen's case was important because the Judge presiding, Lord Justice Jackson was highly critical of the Steering Committee. The HJC knows many bereaved families who have long called for investigation into the entire role the Steering Committee played, and the Hillsborough Justice Campaign has ongoing legal activities which will root out more Linskills and hold their negligence to Judicial and Public scrutiny.

Bereaved families have been misled into a tangled web of complicated legal litigation stemming directly from the initial legal manoeuvres by the Steering Committee. Over a decade after Hillsborough , the legal battle is only really just beginning and the Hillsborough Justice Campaign has been able to find Solicitors and other legal people whose motives are not purely financial. As a result, we can point to two successful landmark cases, and this is just the beginning of our attempts to gain Justice from the legal process. Obviously, certain details of our legal endeavours must be kept under wraps, but we will keep you updated on the many legal battles which we are involved in.

Finally, we would advise any survivor, rescuer or witness to the Hillsborough Disaster to seriously consider contacting us for advice on any legal steps which you can take.

If you were compensated for physical injury and/or physiological injury, we need to know which Solicitors dealt with you and details of your experiences. Any approach you make with be treated in the strictest confidence and we can, if necessary, offer you the services of Solicitors who we trust.

To any survivors or rescuers who have never claimed compensation, ask yourself how much of your life was stolen from you because of your experiences. We know only too well you can't buy that time back, but professional counselling and possible compensation for injury and physiological damage is your right.

None of us care about money, but we know it's the only language they understand. Our victory against one firm of Solicitors - Linskills of Bootle, Liverpool, will force other Solicitors to take more care in properly advising victims of disasters.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh they probably would. But if somebody dared to suggest that there were several hundred Albion fans trying to bash the gates down, I suspect it would be taken on the chin to a point, rather than the entire city of Brighton & Hove furiously fuming at such an insensitive allogation and pointing the finger at everyone else.

So if 96 Albion fans were killed because of police incompetence (regardless of whether they'd been drinking or not) it would be taken on the chin and left to disappear from everybody's consciousness? Especially if the police has acted in the way South Yorkshire police did?

Right.

 

[ROSM]

I agree with some elements of what you say- but I also think that in relation to the actions of the police, the officers on the ground were almost certainly reacting to (1) their instructions from the top and (2) their non-existent training in relation to crowd control and football stadiums in particular.


Incidentally (and this is an entirely genuine question), what do you consider "justice" would be in these circumstances?

And, if I can play devil's advocate for a second, is there such a thing as a "Justice For The Juventus 39" campaign?

I want to make clear that I am not criticising police in general. South Yorkshire in specific had a poor reputation prior to 1989 regarding policing of crowd events.

I agree 100% that the officers were acting on orders - and the rank and file officers are not the issue here. The issue comes from the actions of middle ranking and senior officers and their disregard for the law by the attempts made to conceal and misdirect inquiries after the event. I also agree with your point about poor crowd control training and I used the quotes about finding a level to highlight that. The lack of training and midset is one thing (that is a corporate failure), the attempts of individuals who should have been acting within the law is another entirely.

If I can take your last point next, nobody can ever ignore and overlook the part that Liverpool fans played in the heysel incidents. Their actionswere the single main cause of the deaths that night. The unsafe nature of the stadium came a distant second with policing third. Ironically, the Deputy Chief exec of the Belgian FA was jailed for his organisations lack of control at heysel as I believe was the police chief. Significant criminal trials took place and many people were convicted based on their actions that night (many Liverpool fans).

Following the collapse of a stand in the French Cup in the early 90s, the French FA were convicted of corporate negligience, one of their board was jailed, one of the police officers in charge was jailed as was a representative of the local government.

So when I talk about Justice there are probably 4 main areas I would have liked to have seen covered:

- The interim Taylor report covered the failure of the policing and authorities that day. The final report covered stadium safety going forward. the interim report had no legal weight other than an opinion - it should have been upgraded to a subsection of the final report.

- The FA should have been prosecuted for its failure to heed warnings received from attendees at the previous 6 Hillsborough Semi finals into the poor routing, design, crowd control etc.

- The south yorkshire police at no point have ever admitted responsibility or apologised for their role that day. I would have liked to have seen prosecutions of the main officers involved based on full evidence rather than the lukewarm proceedings that did take place

- Finally, the inquest was fundamentally flawed in terms of the rules they worked within. The decision was taken that the cut off point would be 3.15. There were people who died who were proven to be still alive at that point but that cut off point arrived at meant the failure of the emergency services and individual actions that made the situation worse were barred from being included in the inquest findings by the coroner. This in itself negated the ability for successful prosection to be achieved.

 

[Cairnsinho]

I read dozens of accounts yesterday, like I try to do every year, written by those who were at the ground 19 years ago. It gives me some perspective on the insignificant annoyances in life, not just football, that I tend to allow to get me down and I felt quite the fool when, sat alone in my living room, I eventually turned off the laptop with my eyes welling up and an overwelming feeling of emptyness.

Many of the individuals who were re-telling their stories (along with those who after 19 years are only now just finding the strength to open up) were in the Leppings Lane end and the overiding emotion conveyed by almost each and every story was one of guilt.

I'll take my place in amoungst some of those very same people at Craven Cottage on Saturday and be grateful that my life hasn't been blighted like countless others around me, but offer praise to, and take strength from, those who continue to fight for what they believe is justice and a chance to find some peace.

Brighton fans should know damn well the spirit, passion and strength of a footballing community. The 96 poor souls who were taken from Merseyside should never be forgotten.

Justice for the 96.

YNWA.

 

[edna krabappel]

Fair enough, it was an honest question.

One thing that really grates with me is when tabloid newspapers in particular get on their high horses about the "paltry" compensation awarded to victims of serious crime or similar tragedies. The Sarah Payne thing being one example. One of the papers banged on and on about the compensation her family were awarded being pathetically inadequate.

My question is: what IS adequate compensation for the loss of someone's life? What is Sarah Payne worth, what is a 21 year old Liverpool fan worth, say, compared to a 48 year old? What about a pensioner killed in the London bombings, say? How does anyone judge what a life is worth?

The concept of damages is all well and good, but I can never get my head around how "compensation" can ever really be that if you've lost someone you love.

So I presume the Liverpool groups are talking about justice in some other sense- ie criminal proceedings perhaps?

 

[bhaexpress]

Oh they probably would. But if somebody dared to suggest that there were several hundred Albion fans trying to bash the gates down, I suspect it would be taken on the chin to a point, rather than the entire city of Brighton & Hove furiously fuming at such an insensitive allogation and pointing the finger at everyone else.

As ROSM suggests, the South Yorks Police have rightly been hauled over the coals for this, but the reason their incompetence had fatal consequences was for several reasons including drunk ticketless fans trying to get in unlawfully.

I couldn't agree more with what you say. I've worked in Liverpool and Scousers have a habit of blaming everybody else for things that go wrong there. Of all the New Towns that sprung up in the 1960s by far and above the worst are Kirkby and Skelmersdale, oddly they're in Merseyside. Many Scousers see Derek Hatton as a hero when in fact he was a self serving crook. I remember how many Scousers I worked with thought Ken Dodd was a 'bit of a scally' (a loveable rogue to you and me) when he got done for tax evasion, completely missing the point that people like him not paying their taxes meant less dole money for them.

It's not all down to bad Policing at the end of the day.

 

[ROSM]

I couldn't agree more with what you say. I've worked in Liverpool and Scousers have a habit of blaming everybody else for things that go wrong there. Of all the New Towns that sprung up in the 1960s by far and above the worst are Kirkby and Skelmersdale, oddly they're in Merseyside. Many Scousers see Derek Hatton as a hero when in fact he was a self serving crook. I remember how many Scousers I worked with thought Ken Dodd was a 'bit of a scally' (a loveable rogue to you and me) when he got done for tax evasion, completely missing the point that people like him not paying their taxes meant less dole money for them.

It's not all down to bad Policing at the end of the day.

so to use your logic it wouldn't matter if they were gillingham fans as they're pikeys anyway. Or palace fans as they're croydon scum. Or West Ham fans as they're cockney barrow boys. Or Swindon fans as they're inbred fuckwits etc

The fans themselves as a minor minor issues here. The failure of authority to recognise the issues at Hillsborough (as encountered by many clubs at Hillsborough before that day including wolves, spurs fans, arsenal and liverpool fans as well). But maybe Wolves fans were workshy layabouts too?

 

[Mr Blobby]

The Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough was always dangerous when full. I stood in it with Coventry City in April 1987 for an FA 1/4 Final. I went with some Coventry mates instead of going to see the Albion at Barnsley. It was one hell of a crush that day as everyone ends up squeezing into the same bit of terrace through the tunnel. Each time there was any excitement there was a crowd surge and loads of people got crushed!

I also have a mate who was at the Wolves v Spurs semi final at Hillsborough a few years before that, and on that day they made people climb out the end and sit infront of the fencing because of the crush.

The fact that 96 people died was a mixture of poor policing decisions,poor treatment and opinion of football fans by the authorities, poor behavour by some supporters but not helped by a poorly designed terrace and entrance. Today is not really the day to blame people, if it had been Brighton fans I am sure we wouldnt be having this debate. The 96 did not deserve to die watching a game of football.

I was at Leeds v Brighton that day, we passed many of the Forest and Liverpool fans on the motorway on our way home. A very sad day :-(