Dutch cabinet approves partial ban on Islamic veil in public areas

[bWize]

Somewhat. Tbh I only learnt why they wear the veil last week so who am I to pass judgement.

Sorry if I came off wrong but was just trying to get a point across. I fully endorse people of all colours and nationalities living in this country if there are prepared to live by the laws of the land and have a mutual respect for each other. It's when certain cultures & religions try and change the rules and start wanting to force their own laws/ideoligies onto others that I have an issue with.

I also shouldn't have used the term "Muslim's" in my previous post as I realise it's only a minority (Radicals) who are intent on "taking the piss" but they are the ones I was refering to... No offence intended!

 

[Deleted member 22389]

We have four branches of Islam in this country today, which I define as Moderate, Hard Line and Extreme

Don't Care, Enjoys a drink and so on and don't really care for the religion

Moderate, Integrates well, follows their religion without making a big fuss. Respect others religions.

Hard Line, Follows Islam 24/7. Supports and tries to force certain aspects of Islam on Western Society, such as Sharia Law, Burqas for women. Will never stop until everything in the UK is geared towards their own religion whether you like it or not.

Extreme, Takes things that step further by wanting to completely remove anybody that doesn't support the religion in the way they do.

Hard Line and Extreme are the ones we should be concerned about.

 

[GT49er]

If they fully integrate into a free country then surely they should be free to wear what they want just like everybody else.Integrated into a society doesn't mean you have to share peoples views it just means you have to respect and accept them.

Would that include respecting the host nation's view that covering the face is unacceptable?

 

[beorhthelm]

Would that include respecting the host nation's view that covering the face is unacceptable?

yes, culturally unacceptable. what everyone keeps ignoring, especially when talking about accepting the rules of the country, is that theres no law against covering your face in this country. if you want a ban then to get it you need to ensure its not seen to be prejudicing one group, so all forms of facing covering should be included. banning something affecting one tiny group is going against our English traditions too.

 

[daveinprague]

Would that include respecting the host nation's view that covering the face is unacceptable?

I think that even NSC shows the host nations views are quite diverse. I personally couldnt give a flying **** if some woman is wearing a hijab and has her face covered. The same as I dont give a **** when I see somebody in a motorcycle helmet, but then again, im not a paranoid person (thats not to say you are incidentally), but other than irrational paranoia, I fail to see the concern.

 

[symyjym]

I think that even NSC shows the host nations views are quite diverse. I personally couldnt give a flying **** if some woman is wearing a hijab and has her face covered. The same as I dont give a **** when I see somebody in a motorcycle helmet, but then again, im not a paranoid person (thats not to say you are incidentally), but other than irrational paranoia, I fail to see the concern.

A hijab is a head scarf that can be pulled across the lower part of the face as optional, and is completely different to a Burka and Niqab.

Oxford Imam Dr Taj Hargey calls Burqa 'Archaic Tribal Rag,' Calls for Nat'l. Ban.

http://www.clarionproject.org/news/oxford-imam-calls-burqa-archaic-tribal-rag-calls-ntl-ban#

 

[daveinprague]

Whatever its called. Thats basically how much it bothers me.I dont care what its called, and I lived in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, we irreverently called Saudi woman Guinness bottles... and I saw somebody saying earlier that its rubbish to suggest it nullifies sexual intent. After a year in Saudi, I saw a woman raise her arm to pay for something in a store, and it dawned on me that she actually had breasts, so it had obviously put it out of my mind for at least a year. Ive also seen, many, many times, muslim women describing that they prefer wearing it, rather than it being imposed on them. Why it would bother other people is a bit weird tbh.

 

[The Spanish]

I

Whatever its called. Thats basically how much it bothers me.I dont care what its called, and I lived in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, we irreverently called Saudi woman Guinness bottles... and I saw somebody saying earlier that its rubbish to suggest it nullifies sexual intent. After a year in Saudi, I saw a woman raise her arm to pay for something in a store, and it dawned on me that she actually had breasts, so it had obviously put it out of my mind for at least a year. Ive also seen, many, many times, muslim women describing that they prefer wearing it, rather than it being imposed on them. Why it would bother other people is a bit weird tbh.

I totally understand people rationalising it and stating that they are not bothered by it, but like with other contentious issues, claiming not to understand that it bothers or alarms some people, claiming you see that standpoint as 'weird',doesn't ring true. If that's a genuine belief and you seriously cannot empathise these other viewpoints, then that's a concern when debating.

Is it really true you find it 'weird' that people haven't to a man taken this new phenomenon of having young women in Britain wearing burkas, totally in their stride? I find that weird.

 

[daveinprague]

So, why does it alarm people?
Bank robbery potential? Bank robbers tend to cover their faces.
Potential bombers? You can hide a bomb under any type of clothing.
Escaping detection from the police? It is one of the many disguises available.
Fear that it is imposed on the woman? Ive seen lots of interviews where women have claimed to prefer it.
Ive seen women wearing islamic dress since I was a kid, its not entirely a new phenomenon. Recent events have made a difference, to peoples paranoia about islam, but how a womans choice of clothing should be part of that, I dont understand. What is alarming people about it, as I do find it weird. What fears do you have about it?

 

[symyjym]

So, why does it alarm people?
Bank robbery potential? Bank robbers tend to cover their faces.
Potential bombers? You can hide a bomb under any type of clothing.
Escaping detection from the police? It is one of the many disguises available.
Fear that it is imposed on the woman? Ive seen lots of interviews where women have claimed to prefer it.
Ive seen women wearing islamic dress since I was a kid, its not entirely a new phenomenon.
What is alarming people about it, as I do find it weird, sorry.

Surely if it has been imposed on them they HAVE to say they prefer it?

Men are also known to wear them as a disguise, so like it or not there is an air of deception attached to them, especially in the world we live in today.

 

[BadFish]

Surely if it has been imposed on them they HAVE to say they prefer it?

Men are also known to wear them as a disguise, so like it or not there is an air of deception attached to them, especially in the world we live in today.

We should ban fake beards and sunglasses too.

 

[Nibble]

I've never heard so much paranoid claptrap in all my life. It borders on outright racism but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and think of it as fear.
This thread is full of people who read The Daily Mail, love Tim Henman and think everyone in. Burqa want to blow their children up.

But by far the dumbest post, and I forget whose it was, who claims that Muslims are not trying to integrate but the poster takes the word of a few FOREIGNERS in Muslim countries who don't like it because it's TOO MUSLIM.
You couldn't write this crap. And indeed, why would you.

 

[daveinprague]

Surely if it has been imposed on them they HAVE to say they prefer it?

Men are also known to wear them as a disguise, so like it or not there is an air of deception attached to them, especially in the world we live in today.

The women ive seen interviewed certainly didnt show any element of it being imposed on them. Im sorry. Not accepting that.
Im sure there are cases, but, I dont believe that all women in burkas are having it 'imposed' on them.

 

[Soulman]

So, why does it alarm people?
Bank robbery potential? Bank robbers tend to cover their faces.
Potential bombers? You can hide a bomb under any type of clothing.
Escaping detection from the police? It is one of the many disguises available.
Fear that it is imposed on the woman? Ive seen lots of interviews where women have claimed to prefer it.
Ive seen women wearing islamic dress since I was a kid, its not entirely a new phenomenon. Recent events have made a difference, to peoples paranoia about islam, but how a womans choice of clothing should be part of that, I dont understand. What is alarming people about it, as I do find it weird. What fears do you have about it?

The thing is that the burka is not being banned on the streets. Not a total ban. Surely at police interviews where it could be an entirely different person, not to mention mention ID parades. How about driving tests, easy to shove a ringer in Burka. Passport offices, in court where a woman has already refused to uncover her head. There are places that no head wear should be worn. In the Dutch case and hopefully here the ban will just be for certain buildings.

 

[daveinprague]

The thing is that the burka is not being banned on the streets. Not a total ban. Surely at police interviews where it could be an entirely different person, not to mention mention ID parades. How about driving tests, easy to shove a ringer in Burka. Passport offices, in court where a woman has already refused to uncover her head. There are places that no head wear should be worn. In the Dutch case and hopefully here the ban will just be for certain buildings.

None of which I would have a problem with Soulman, but the thread has developed into some finding it being worn at all, upsetting for them.

 

[daveinprague]

Well firstly I wont talk to someone wearing a mask, guy fawkes, burka or whatever.

Now ive spoken to at least 4 people who have lived in muslim countries and one thing they have all said is you cant let muslims take the piss. Burkas. mega mosques and halal certification on things like Kingsmill bread are prime examples of this.

You confuse tolerance and cowardice. There is no security issue per se as in extreme you can say take your veil of or you will be shot!. Make no mistake, badfish is a coward on every level, that why he whines about acceptance. You dont have to accept anything as that is just a demand you change your views.. He like others on here is trying to have it both ways.

He will be quick to assume the worse about UKIP or people who critque him but assume the worse about someone in a burka? He would run a mile first.This kid of hypocracy is common, its called stonewalling. This goes along with his scaremongering in another post(I just read 2 of his) Sooner you see he has no arguments the better it would be for you.

Halal certification? haha... Bread is halal. Most things are. Do you think its muslims pushing for 'stating the obvious' or business maximizing their profit?
I lived in Saudi Arabia. I would imagine your friends were among the expats busily breaking local laws. I know I did.
UKIP is a party that has attracted the racist vote. To deny that is, well, up to the individual. Why should I assume the worst about a woman, over that womans choice of apparel?
How many cases have there been of people using the burka to hide for example? A few. Really not many. How many racists have been unearthed in UKIP? Quite a few.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I've never heard so much paranoid claptrap in all my life. It borders on outright racism but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and think of it as fear.
This thread is full of people who read The Daily Mail, love Tim Henman and think everyone in. Burqa want to blow their children up.

But by far the dumbest post, and I forget whose it was, who claims that Muslims are not trying to integrate but the poster takes the word of a few FOREIGNERS in Muslim countries who don't like it because it's TOO MUSLIM.
You couldn't write this crap. And indeed, why would you.

I don't know how multicultural your area is, but if it is anything where I used to live in Luton I don't think you will ever appreciate what is it really like. Some people like it, some people fear it. For me it was fear and I'm glad I eventually left. I noticed a change in Luton over the time I was there, with more women adopting the Burqa. I used to see quite a few women walking down my road wearing it, that pointed to change in the religion for me, to a more hard line way of thinking. I know there was a lot of mosques in Luton, Islamic schools with everything geared around that religion.

 

[The Spanish]

Halal certification? haha... Bread is halal. Most things are. Do you think its muslims pushing for 'stating the obvious' or business maximizing their profit?
I lived in Saudi Arabia. I would imagine your friends were among the expats busily breaking local laws. I know I did.
UKIP is a party that has attracted the racist vote. To deny that is, well, up to the individual. Why should I assume the worst about a woman, over that womans choice of apparel?
How many cases have there been of people using the burka to hide for example? A few. Really not many. How many racists have been unearthed in UKIP? Quite a few.

You lived in Saudi Dave?

 

[Nibble]

I don't know how multicultural your area is, but if it is anything where I used to live in Luton I don't think you will ever appreciate what is it really like. Some people like it, some people fear it. For me it was fear and I'm glad I eventually left. I noticed a change in Luton over the time I was there, with more women adopting the Burqa. I used to see quite a few women walking down my road wearing it, that pointed to change in the religion for me, to a more hard line way of thinking. I know there was a lot of mosques in Luton, Islamic schools with everything geared around that religion.

Don't presume to know how I react to different areas. Not everyone thinks the same way you do.

 

[daveinprague]

You lived in Saudi Dave?

Yes, KKMC, Al Khobar, and Riyadh.