Do you believe in Jesus Christ ?

[pastafarian]

Do you believe there is any intelligent live beyond the solar system?
If yes then Jesus may have been from there and could have be eons ahead of us in evolution, thus resurrection might be but a trick of the light, from which we are all made.
If no, then surly with all the trillions of stars in the universe, around which planet have evolved, you must believe God made this planet for us and Jesus could well have been sent to instruct the human race in how to conduct itself.

i am dumbstruck.

 

[NMH]

A bloke is purported to have padded around in a sparse unsophisticated occupied land and just performed miracles.
If God created this World and all around it, with all the laws of physics - but the supposed embodiment of God manifested in flesh is apparently defying all those laws.
And I am supposed to believe that "or else I can't see the kingdom of heaven"

Er.....yeah, right.
I don't think so.

An example of a cult, and a pretty outlandish fabrication it seems to be founded upon. Moonies and Haley-Bopp could be as believable - that the sacrificial mass suicide sect are out there (maybe with Tim Leary?) and hanging on a comet-world doing a knees-up.

 

[marshy68]

yes and he still walks the earth today known vicente!

 

[father_and_son]

When trying to debate religion I take the Douglas Adams approach...

There is a teapot orbiting the Earth. It must be true despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary because I *really* believe it!

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Now there's a good post.

Apart from the stuff about scientific books...over 2000 years ago in the Persian empire they had such things as hospitals, mental asylums, anti biotics injections, splints for broken bones, brain surgery, etc etc. all of which left the Victorian idea of social care way behind....

 

[jimhigham]

A little education on the old testament required here please. Have you got any links?

Slavery http://etori.tripod.com/slave-verses.html

Genocide http://www.openbible.info/topics/genocide

Rape http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape

They are all in there. How you read them is up to you. However, seeing as how Lot offered up his own daughters, I don't get my own ethical values from the Bible.

Peace!

 

[Chesney Christ]

Not after tonight's result.

 

[Triggaaar]

Slavery http://etori.tripod.com/slave-verses.html

Genocide http://www.openbible.info/topics/genocide

Rape http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape

They are all in there. How you read them is up to you. However, seeing as how Lot offered up his own daughters, I don't get my own ethical values from the Bible.

Peace!

Firstly, thank you very much for posting the links. I will read them and I will learneth from thee that has spoken.

Thirdly, I is well vexed about what I is witnessed, on the tenth day of April, and alcohol has been thy saviour, for which I apologise, hence forth.

 

[PC-Gull]

"Life after death is as improbable as sex after marriage"

You could at least share with people which film that brilliant line comes from. For any that are interested it is Clue. Hilarious dark comedy.

 

[El Presidente]

OK.... is that true or is there a hidden meaning that passed me by... your dad was killed by a cat?

He was in recovery from cancer and weak, tripped over the cat coming down the stairs, and went headlong through the porch window and a piece of glass cut him in two all the way down his back. My mum found him in a pool of blood when she came home from work.

If that is God showing me he loves me in a mysterious way he can f*** right off.

 

[jimhigham]

Firstly, thank you very much for posting the links. I will read them and I will learneth from thee that has spoken.

Thirdly, I is well vexed about what I is witnessed, on the tenth day of April, and alcohol has been thy saviour, for which I apologise, hence forth.

"Like"

 

[Danny-Boy]

There is historical evidence that Jesus the man did exist, whether or not he was the son of God is the dispute. I do believe Jesus rose from the dead. What I can't believe is the the day Jesus was killed in such a horrific way is called 'Good' Friday. Sound's like a pretty bad day to me.

Well it would have certainly held back Bob Hoskins' career if it had been the Long Terrible Friday I think. I believe in JC but as Indy demonstrated, it's a leap of faith.

I've spent years trying to argue or reason myself into believing, it just doesn't work like that.

 

[Danny-Boy]

He was in recovery from cancer and weak, tripped over the cat coming down the stairs, and went headlong through the porch window and a piece of glass cut him in two all the way down his back. My mum found him in a pool of blood when she came home from work.

If that is God showing me he loves me in a mysterious way he can f*** right off.

Maybe he was punishing the father for the sins of the son...

 

[Danny-Boy]

When trying to debate religion I take the Douglas Adams approach...

There is a teapot orbiting the Earth. It must be true despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary because I *really* believe it!

No it landed on a house in Peacehaven many years ago, you can see it stuck on the roof even now if you look out along the A259 (north side).

And that's a FACT.

 

[1959]

Respectfully...

The gospels, or better evidence of their circulation were in evidence long before the 150 years you suggest. The synpotics (the gospels other than John) appear to point to an original, as yet unfound document, written probably within 30 years of his death. In my studies of church history I placed Mark as the oldest gospel (aroud AD 70-80) some historians have it earlier.

Thanks for your considered reply. By "long before" I think you mean about 70 years. Any degree of accuracy from such a distance would be hard enough to get in our modern world, let alone back then, when 70 years meant at least two or three generations.

There are many secular documents that refer to christ in the century following his death. Notably Tallus (c AD 50-60) who tried to explain away the darkness that enveloped the land at the crucifixion as an eclipse, the famous Jewish historian Josephus makes references to Christ (c AD 70)- although it is my belief that his references have been doctored down the ages to read differently.

I think "many secular documents" might be a bit over-generous. And it's in the century following his death. You may as well ask me to give a description of what went on during the Crimean War, on the strength of what my grandfather was told by his grandfather, who wasn't actually there, who then told me, and then accept it as historically accurate. Thallus' very existence has been in doubt for years so, you know.......
And Josephus? So, his texts were altered to fit an agenda, but no-one else's were?

Christs existence is doubted by few because of sequential evidence. One early bishop writes of his mentor, another of their mentor and so on and eventually it all traces back to the disciples. I could give much more detail but I neither have the time or inclination as much of the debate on here is subjective conjecture.

Do you mean like a family tree?
Even with modern techniques, it's hard for anyone to trace their family back beyond a couple of hundred years. I find it impossible to believe in the accuracy of bishops and mentors who wrote up to two thousand years ago?
Forgive me if I've misunderstood.

Suffice to say that no-one doubts the existence of the disciples as they are alluded to in many traditions, and by first and second generation ordainees.

No-one doubted the existence of dragons and unicorns, witches and fairies until relatively recently. They were alluded to in many traditions as well, and still are. There are written testimonies from sailors who have 'seen' mermaids. They probably swore on the Bible about it. And probably believed it too.

So the question is more who was Jesus, rather than if Jesus was.

That's not the conclusion I would draw, but fair enough. Who was he? I, like you, have absolutely no way of knowing.

One Roman centurion, who's writing was found, described him as a 'Sophist whom we crucified in Palestine'.

A Roman centurion who could read and write? Not unheard of, but a rarity, I think. I put that quote into google and it came up with Lucian of Samosata, a Greek satirist born more than 100 years after Jesus, quoting a bit of folklore he'd heard. Interestingly, all the actual quotes from Lucian's writings talk about a man "who was crucified" whereas all the Christian websites have it down as "who we crucified". The latter tiny difference tends to imply eye-witness status. A great example of subtly changing a quote to fit one's agenda.

Perhaps he was, but the spread of christianity as a lie based on a fictional character is absurd, as the recorded deaths of thousands of followers at the hands of the Romans so close to the 'events' suggests at a minimum that the subject of this oppression was real even if we doubt his claims.

Why is it so absurd? Oppression is not evidence that he existed. Mormons believe that Jesus came to the United States. They believe that a convicted and proven liar called Smith translated texts by putting on magic glasses and sticking his head in a magic hat. This is stuff that came about within the last 200 years and hundreds of thousands of people believe it, just like some on this board believe in their version of Christianity, as is their right. Those people too were subjects of very real and murderous oppression. Does that mean Joseph Smith was right and the events he talks about must be real? Why is their belief any more or less absurd? Or how about that stuff about outer space and thetans that Scientologists believe. Or how about the people who believe in non-Christian healing angels? Or attach actual spiritual powers to places like Stonehenge or Avebury?

Let people believe whatever they choose, or more often whatever their parents choose for them to believe, but let's not kid ourselves that there can be any sort of historical accuracy or real evidence for it. Please let's not try to 'prove' something, because we can't. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. That's why it's called faith, isn't it?

 

[shellsuit]

Mormons believe that Jesus came to the United States. They believe that a convicted and proven liar called Smith translated texts by putting on magic glasses and sticking his head in a magic hat. This is stuff that came about within the last 200 years and hundreds of thousands of people believe it, just like some on this board believe in their version of Christianity, as is their right.

great post,but worryingly i think there are about 14 million of them now

 

[Acker79]

great post,but worryingly i think there are about 14 million of them now

And many more who just like the play...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuMI2R79U7c

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

f*** me he's been up and running for 4 days now. Is this still going ?!

 

[Smirko]

Respectfully...


Thanks for your considered reply. By "long before" I think you mean about 70 years. Any degree of accuracy from such a distance would be hard enough to get in our modern world, let alone back then, when 70 years meant at least two or three generations.



I think "many secular documents" might be a bit over-generous. And it's in the century following his death. You may as well ask me to give a description of what went on during the Crimean War, on the strength of what my grandfather was told by his grandfather, who wasn't actually there, who then told me, and then accept it as historically accurate. Thallus' very existence has been in doubt for years so, you know.......
And Josephus? So, his texts were altered to fit an agenda, but no-one else's were?



Do you mean like a family tree?
Even with modern techniques, it's hard for anyone to trace their family back beyond a couple of hundred years. I find it impossible to believe in the accuracy of bishops and mentors who wrote up to two thousand years ago?
Forgive me if I've misunderstood.


No-one doubted the existence of dragons and unicorns, witches and fairies until relatively recently. They were alluded to in many traditions as well, and still are. There are written testimonies from sailors who have 'seen' mermaids. They probably swore on the Bible about it. And probably believed it too.


That's not the conclusion I would draw, but fair enough. Who was he? I, like you, have absolutely no way of knowing.


A Roman centurion who could read and write? Not unheard of, but a rarity, I think. I put that quote into google and it came up with Lucian of Samosata, a Greek satirist born more than 100 years after Jesus, quoting a bit of folklore he'd heard. Interestingly, all the actual quotes from Lucian's writings talk about a man "who was crucified" whereas all the Christian websites have it down as "who we crucified". The latter tiny difference tends to imply eye-witness status. A great example of subtly changing a quote to fit one's agenda.



Why is it so absurd? Oppression is not evidence that he existed. Mormons believe that Jesus came to the United States. They believe that a convicted and proven liar called Smith translated texts by putting on magic glasses and sticking his head in a magic hat. This is stuff that came about within the last 200 years and hundreds of thousands of people believe it, just like some on this board believe in their version of Christianity, as is their right. Those people too were subjects of very real and murderous oppression. Does that mean Joseph Smith was right and the events he talks about must be real? Why is their belief any more or less absurd? Or how about that stuff about outer space and thetans that Scientologists believe. Or how about the people who believe in non-Christian healing angels? Or attach actual spiritual powers to places like Stonehenge or Avebury?

Let people believe whatever they choose, or more often whatever their parents choose for them to believe, but let's not kid ourselves that there can be any sort of historical accuracy or real evidence for it. Please let's not try to 'prove' something, because we can't. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. That's why it's called faith, isn't it?

Wow this is like a scene from The Talented Mr Ripley! How you like these apples!

 

[beorhthelm]

Why is it so absurd? Oppression is not evidence that he existed. Mormons believe that Jesus came to the United States. They believe that a convicted and proven liar called Smith translated texts by putting on magic glasses and sticking his head in a magic hat.

A good example, but a better one is the "church" of scientology - a fiction writer invents a cult, we know that he does this for the purposes of financial gain, yet people still believe in the teachings of that cult. trained historians, with literally reams of contemporary accounts still question and argue over details of the actions of beligerant in the second world war. yet we are supposed to believe that a book written 1950-1800 years ago is accurate account of real events?

and always convienently over looked are the other, often older texts from other religions that are presumed to be false.

the only evidence of anything is that the ideas were new within and against that culture, so the best you can say is there was probably someone or a small group around the time and area spreading these ideas. and its a shame the old testement was bolted on to those ideas, because the core teaching isnt so bad, little different in spirit and ideal to Budda.