[Politics] Brexit

[Kinky Gerbil]

Johnson trying to appear to be law abiding.

Sounds like he has a deal ?

A combination of returning the whip to his rebels ( except those who are now Lib Dems ! ), threatening to kick out any ERG malcontents, bunging the DUP, and snake charming some Labour rebels, may just scrape it through Parliament.

I think you are right, it’s Mays deal.

The reaction of some of the ERG yesterday and this morning suggest the deal is Mays and it’s that or extension.

 

[dingodan]

I went through this some time back, and I can't be arsed to go through all the stats again, but what I found was that for the age demographic of immigrants, they are less likely to commit serious crime (something that receives a prison sentence), than the UK born population.

Nobody said that immigrants were more likely to commit crime FFS.

Stop twisting things.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

This is up there as one of the stupidest posts on this thread.
If there is no English culture there is obviously no American culture or Japanese culture or French, Spanish, Scottish, Welsh, Argentinian, Irish, Pakistani or Australian culture. You wouldn’t be so stupid as to suggest all other countries have cultures yet single out England as having none and being the only country with a non existent culture.
In which case, if there are no cultures what is the point of Multiculturalism?
Is it just England that has a non existent culture or is it every country?

Yes, it is just England. It suits a particular agenda. Its the same as walking around saying that you are European first and English/British second. Its fashionable to denigrate and run down this country. It serves a purpose. They say they don't identify with being English but live active lives here and mix 'culturally ' with numerous different cultures and nationalities. There are those who are desperate to change everything about traditional English culture. They jumped on the politically correct bandwagon many moons ago, are neo-liberalists and would love nothing more than to see true English/British identity disappear.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is getting so fudging stupid.


I can't help thinking all the different factions, wanting different things, flopping around like a freshly caught mackerel plays perfectly into Johnson's 'fake-news' plans.

He's got himself into a position where he can propose something he stopped by voting against it.
Have others stop his plan by voting it.
Claim he's the one who will deliver Brexit.


Utter utter madness.

i think too much strategic credibility is being granted to Johnson. point 1 and 3 (vote for something he was against and taking all the credit) are entirely in character for him. point 2, having some try to stop the plan, is invention of those who cant accept he's PM. everything that has occurred in the past months has been reactionary, fumbling from one bodge to the next, not cleverly orchestrated.

what is madness, in retrospect, was May probably went further than she ever needed, in order to appease different factions who didnt like a remainer leading leave.

 

[The Clamp]

Well, it's clear to see you two are extremely frustrated, why is this Why do you feel the need to insult me






Don't believe the hype Valkyrie.

Thank you Thunderbolt, as I keep telling people I am the original and only Mouldy Boots.

I’m not really sure how people like Mouldy boots actually expect anything but ridicule on here. I mean, they really expect to be taken seriously?

 

[dingodan]

Okay.... let's just say this is a misunderstanding.

Justice needs to be meted out on criminals - and the law should be blind to the nationality of the offender in dealing with it.

Known foreign criminals need to be prohibited from coming into our country - or in the case of minor criminality, they should be monitored closely....

Is that okay?

Yes, I was going to say, we can probably agree that foreign criminals regardless of nationality should be denied the right to move here.

 

[Baldseagull]

What may be significantly different from Boris is the intended end position of the next phase of negotiations (thats right folks, there is more to come, even with a deal). Whatever version of the Backstop is agreed to now, could change to any other version of the backstop potentially, as it would count as "alternative arrangements", if a future Government decided a whole UK thing was better for us and the EU agreed to it, but I think we would be best with a whole UK thing to start with as the EU would be keen to reduce this to NI only, as whole UK allows us to take the piss quite a bit, in regards to having our cake and eating it in the Single Market.

 

[Baldseagull]

I've often wondered about our culture. When I think of it I think of stereotypical things like tea drinking and the respect for the queuing system.

I'm not saying there isn't an English culture, I just don't know what it is.

There is one, it is just heavily influenced by all the other cultures we have come into contact with.

 

[dingodan]

I think you are right, it’s Mays deal.

The reaction of some of the ERG yesterday and this morning suggest the deal is Mays and it’s that or extension.

Didn't May's deal involve the UK remaining in a customs union with the EU until (or unless) a trade deal was reached?

That's quite different to the deal being negotiated right now (I assume). The new deal is said to remove us from any customs union with the EU.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I think this proposal is not May's final deal, but the one she reached previously which was about to be announced, before the DUP embarrassingly and publically torpedoed it.

 

[BBassic]

There is one, it is just heavily influenced by all the other cultures we have come into contact with.

Thanks.

I might start a thread about it later; I'm interested to see what the minds of NSC would define as English / British culture, but away from this thread to try and keep politics out of it if at all possible.

 

[Baldseagull]

Nobody said that immigrants were more likely to commit crime FFS.

Stop twisting things.

I am not twisting anything, if you want less serious crime in your neighbourhood, EU migrants are a safer bet than a UK born population. You do want less serious crime don't you?
The reason I had dug that up previously was that someone had said EU migrants were contributing more than their fair share to crime stats, it is relevant though to any discussion of EU migrants and crime.

 

[dingodan]

I am not twisting anything, if you want less serious crime in your neighbourhood, EU migrants are a safer bet than a UK born population. You do want less serious crime don't you?
The reason I had dug that up previously was that someone had said EU migrants were contributing more than their fair share to crime stats, it is relevant though to any discussion of EU migrants and crime.

Well it's not relevant to this coversation. Nobody said or implied that immigrants are more likely to commit crime.

 

[vegster]

Didn't May's deal involve the UK remaining in a customs union with the EU until (or unless) a trade deal was reached?

That's quite different to the deal being negotiated right now (I assume). The new deal is said to remove us from any customs union with the EU.

Was that the one with the border in the Irish Sea that was unacceptable to both May and Johnson?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Yes, I was going to say, we can probably agree that foreign criminals regardless of nationality should be denied the right to move here.

Apart from the criminal community in The Republic of Ireland obviously, with it's near 5 million population - they've always been more than welcome to all move here tomorrow if they liked.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes, it is just England. It suits a particular agenda. Its the same as walking around saying that you are European first and English/British second. Its fashionable to denigrate and run down this country. It serves a purpose. They say they don't identify with being English but live active lives here and mix 'culturally ' with numerous different cultures and nationalities. There are those who are desperate to change everything about traditional English culture. They jumped on the politically correct bandwagon many moons ago, are neo-liberalists and would love nothing more than to see true English/British identity disappear.

I don't know what sort of people you mix with, but I have never met anyone who fits that description.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

That's Brexit Britain, facts don't matter, just feelings and emotions

Which is why this is such a miscalculated mess and I am not convinced that our country will ever be the same again....

 

[MattBackHome]

Looking back at the early pages of this thread and it's very interesting to see how the language and arguments of 3 years ago have changed.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's pretty much the original May one, except it's not a NI Backstop but a NI now-stop.

The only way of getting round the NI/Ireland border issue is to have a border between The UK and the whole of the the island of Ireland.

NI (semantically) is outside of the Customs Union, but the UK has to operate a border on behalf of the EU to "make it so".

Boris is struggling with the technical detail of how that border would operate, so the EU are threatening a backstop (NI on Customs Union) in case the now-stop doesn't work.

I'm gonna toss a coin and say the above is going "ok" but the arrangements require a long delay to make it happen.

This has split the ERG down the middle, the more pragmatic ones taking a "**** the DUP / We will be out anyway/Loving the ministerial car" position as opposed to the more pro-Unionist / WTO / No Deal / I thought I'd get something from Boris advocates.

They also sussed Boris was never serious about the deadline and he was actually never serious about no deal.

As Tories I'd also imagine they are pissed off he about to find Billions to bribe the ERG.

Forgive me but I would like to see the exact wording of any agreed deal if it happens, before passing judgement as there is so much spin and disinformation surrounding these negotiations. Eg People quoting a Sun (now apparently a reputable SAUCE when it suits) reporter tweeting about some Brexiteers being furious about the proposed deal when those same Brexiteers flatly contradict that spin.

Your view that 'Boris was never serious about the deadline and he was actually never serious about no deal' will come as a surprise to the many remainers on this thread who are claiming no deal is and always was the intended outcome. I think the truth is somewhere in between - Boris would much prefer a deal but not a deal at any cost so no deal is still an option if they can find a way of doing it legally.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Which is why this is such a miscalculated mess and I am not convinced that our country will ever be the same again....

I agree. The lies and propaganda have convinced a large section of the population that somehow they have been robbed and feel discontented.
There are good reasons for discontentment, but that arises from the neglect of public services, especially the NHS, housing, and social care, but none of that is down to the EU.