[Politics] Brexit

[The Rivet]

Its 'tetchy'... honestly, spelling these days

Yep it is, noticed the typo earlier. Didn't worry about it too much. There's always a pedant around to help people out understanding it. Thanks.

 

[portslade seagull]

A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

But half of those have nothing to do with us so should keep out of it

 

[daveybgtt]

• WWF

So I'm supposed to take the word of some brain dead MEATHEADS who's job it is to take steel chair shots to the head? Surely the only members of the WWF even eligible to vote are the British Bulldogs?!?!

 

[Deleted member 2719]

You mean you are unable to provide a link to the leave campaign's immigration plans.

Have you got the Remain campaign's immigration plans then

 

[LlcoolJ]

The Facebook age of people reposting things they've read online just gets increasingly tiresome. I bet half the people posting it don't even read it themselves. That's the third time I've seen this list today on different places online.

And the argument from authority - e.g. the idea that voters shouldn't really be allowed to make their own decisions as they aren't up to it - is so very belittling of people. No-one will be persuaded to change their mind by this level of condescension.

But making your mind up based on what The Daily Mail, The Sun and Nigel Farage tells you is fine? Utter crap.

 

[portslade seagull]

Have you got the Remain campaign's immigration plans then

Course they haven't so they will now have to come up with another scare story like 2p income tax rise and emergency budget ..oh they have already and it has been shot down in flames again like all the other falsehoods.

 

[Sorrel]

But making your mind up based on what The Daily Mail, The Sun and Nigel Farage tells you is fine? Utter crap.

Who said anything about doing that? That's just another argument from authority - if you thought in those sources should be considered as authorities - which I certainly don't.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Yep it is, noticed the typo earlier. Didn't worry about it too much. There's always a pedant around to help people out understanding it. Thanks.

I do hope you got the joke

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Course they haven't so they will now have to come up with another scare story like 2p income tax rise and emergency budget ..oh they have already and it has been shot down in flames again like all the other falsehoods.

Gobby Bobby Geldof on a boat supporting remain, there's another reason to vote Leave.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

And the argument from authority - e.g. the idea that voters shouldn't really be allowed to make their own decisions as they aren't up to it - is so very belittling of people. No-one will be persuaded to change their mind by this level of condescension.

People should make their own minds up, of course - but don't you agree that its a worrying trend that all these expert groups, and people in positions of authority, are being ignored, nay mocked by what could turn out to be a majority of society. We're seeing the same thing with Trump in the US. I find it damning indictment of society as a whole that the people are completely disconnected from - or even deliberately rejecting - people who have worked their lives to get familiar with these issues.

 

[Acker79]

So I'm supposed to take the word of some brain dead MEATHEADS who's job it is to take steel chair shots to the head? Surely the only members of the WWF even eligible to vote are the British Bulldogs?!?!

What about the proud scotsman Rowdy Roddy Piper? Lord Steven Regal? Lord Alfred Hayes

 

[Bold Seagull]

Have you got the Remain campaign's immigration plans then

The Remain's immigration plans are the current government's as remaining means we stay as we are - there is no need to provide a new plan as it is current government policy. There will be some that will blame immigration on the EU, but of course the government has done nothing to curb immigration from outside the EU, a power which it has to do so.

As we don't know what the political landscape will be if we Leave, then it is surely incumbent on the Leave campaigners to provide the blueprints of the shape of the country that is not in the EU. Or is everyone convinced by the 2 words 'points system', and believe our politicians when they say they will reduce immigration?

At the heart of the Leave campaign are current government cabinet ministers who could outline what an out immigration policy will look like. We already know what an in one looks like.

 

[Maldini]

Why do you assume that Cameron and Osbourne represent those that want to remain? They represent the remain campaign, they certainly don't represent my reasons for remaining. In fact, I can't tell the difference between the tactics of the leave or remain campaigns, they both appear to be fought on fear, misinformation, economic predictions etc.

If it was me I'd want the remain campaign to step away from the specifics, and spell out the ideology of what the EU should mean to people, what it represents, the historical significance of achieving alignment with our neighbours for 70 years. What the EU could be, could mean in the future. the debate is bogged down on immigration, random numbers, threats of what will happen, short term economic predictions. Whether you agree with the principles or not, there has been a real lack of inspirational, aspirational, ideological rhetoric from either side in this debate. I won't spell out why this is, but you don't need to look much further to who is leading each campaign.

You simply cannot compare the scare tactics of Remain to Leave.Remain have gone way over the top and it will get worse.As for the ideology of the EU,the've blown it well and truly.They could have made it about an economic/trading union.That's how it started.That's how it was meant to be.We could have even joined the Euro because it makes or made sense.However some people on a crazy power trip just couldn't settle for that.They had to have it all.Political union.Dictating laws.Dictating immigration etc etc etc etc plus they want more.A single european state.10 years ago British people were on board with the EU but since then the've pushed and pushed and pushed us away.The've lost us and when that happens legally on June 23rd others will follow and what could have been a great union has turned into a nightmare.It takes a brave politican to admit the EU hasn't worked but Europe doesn't seem to have too many of them.

Remain is built on fear.The fear what will happen if we leave.Fear of the unknown.I'm sure most British people would vote Leave if they had a crystal ball that said we would be just fine.If the vote on June 23rd was to join the EU we all know what the answer would be.Leave on the other hand is not built on fear but hope.We are positive what we can achieve on our own.

 

[Maldini]

An excerpt from an illuminating article in today's FT (by Martin Wolf). I know the Leavers will want to argue against this, but it sounds a credible scenario to me. If we Vote Leave, it will be an almighty political mess. Regardless of all the arguments based on economic forecasts, the risks of something like this happening are huge. And we'd be relying on Boris to sort it out!

"After the referendum, the UK would cease to have a government in any meaningful sense. The Conservative party, with a tiny majority, would be deeply divided between its pro and anti-European wings. The opposition Labour party is already deeply divided on this and many other issues. Out of this morass would have to come a competent government with a view of what it wants to achieve in complex negotiations with the rest of the EU and the world. It would then have to undertake these negotiations with partners that have many other concerns and would regard the UK with a poisonous blend of hostility and contempt. It would have to decide whether to keep or modify the laws created by more than four decades of EU membership and, if the latter, how to do so. It would have to manage the impact of Brexit on the coherence of the UK and its relations with Ireland. While doing all this, it would have to manage the economy, the fiscal position and the minutiae of political life. Anybody who believes the leaders of the Brexit campaign could manage all this is surely taking illegal drugs."

Short term pain for long term gain.I'm in.

 

[Jim in the West]

It's all getting a little techy now isn't it.

Unfortunately, thanks to the Referendum, it will be tetchy for many years to come - whatever the outcome on 23rd June.

 

[Jim in the West]

Short term pain for long term gain.I'm in.

Short term = 10 years+ ?

 

[Deleted member 2719]

The Remain's immigration plans are the current government's as remaining means we stay as we are - there is no need to provide a new plan as it is current government policy. There will be some that will blame immigration on the EU, but of course the government has done nothing to curb immigration from outside the EU, a power which it has to do so.

As we don't know what the political landscape will be if we Leave, then it is surely incumbent on the Leave campaigners to provide the blueprints of the shape of the country that is not in the EU. Or is everyone convinced by the 2 words 'points system', and believe our politicians when they say they will reduce immigration?

At the heart of the Leave campaign are current government cabinet ministers who could outline what an out immigration policy will look like. We already know what an in one looks like.

So we go with plan D as Blair/Brown plan A didn't work Cameron and whatever his name was plan B didn't work, Cameron solo plan C didn't work.

I am voting plan POINTS to have a better impact and take back control.

 

[Sorrel]

People should make their own minds up, of course - but don't you agree that its a worrying trend that all these expert groups, and people in positions of authority, are being ignored, nay mocked by what could turn out to be a majority of society. We're seeing the same thing with Trump in the US. I find it damning indictment of society as a whole that the people are completely disconnected from - or even deliberately rejecting - people who have worked their lives to get familiar with these issues.

That's the way democracy works. The only way of preventing it would be to introduce some level of qualification to vote: passing certain exams, owning property (like the old days) or something equally unlikely to be democratic. We do prevent convicted prisoners and those detained in mental hospitals from voting; it wouldn't be impossible to extend this. But not sensible, as I'm sure you already agree.

I do think the In campaign are going about things the wrong way - or they appear to be doing so to me. The warnings are getting to be of "the sky is falling" intensity - and they are just being ignored. Or they are saying "look at how the clever and pretty people are voting" or just shouting at them, neither of which are really the way to persuade people.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Unfortunately, thanks to the Referendum, it will be tetchy for many years to come - whatever the outcome on 23rd June.

Exactly. Cameron supposedly called this referendum to keep his party united and he has split them more deeply than ever, and for many years to come. A textbook Goon.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You simply cannot compare the scare tactics of Remain to Leave.Remain have gone way over the top and it will get worse.As for the ideology of the EU,the've blown it well and truly.They could have made it about an economic/trading union.That's how it started.That's how it was meant to be.We could have even joined the Euro because it makes or made sense.However some people on a crazy power trip just couldn't settle for that.They had to have it all.Political union.Dictating laws.Dictating immigration etc etc etc etc plus they want more.A single european state.10 years ago British people were on board with the EU but since then the've pushed and pushed and pushed us away.The've lost us and when that happens legally on June 23rd others will follow and what could have been a great union has turned into a nightmare.It takes a brave politican to admit the EU hasn't worked but Europe doesn't seem to have too many of them.

Remain is built on fear.The fear what will happen if we leave.Fear of the unknown.I'm sure most British people would vote Leave if they had a crystal ball that said we would be just fine.If the vote on June 23rd was to join the EU we all know what the answer would be.Leave on the other hand is not built on fear but hope.We are positive what we can achieve on our own.

10 years ago we weren't plunged into a deep global recession. People always look for things to blame for their hardship in a recession, right now that blame is focussed on the EU. The Leave campaign is fought upon ground that immigrants are responsible for: the strain on our NHS, Education, Health etc. They are not responsible for that, severe cuts are responsible. The Tory plan requires the population to increase in order for the economy to recover. It is not going to turn away people bringing skills, spending their money and paying their taxes in this country. That is not the fault of the EU, that is the policy of our current government. The proof of this is the growth in non EU immigration - something they could control if they wished.

I'm sure most people wouldn't vote leave if we weren't in austerity and weren't in recession. Don't confuse what Leaving or Remaining actually means with how the tactics of the campaigns are manifesting themselves. Positive what we can achieve on our own - so we've not been our own country all this time? That isn't hope, that is just nonsense.