[Politics] Brexit

[Wrong-Direction]

 

[yxee]

Sorry, ipsos mori are reputable? I thought they lost all credibility after their utter failure in the last election.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

 

[dingodan]

Cameron has never said that he doesn't want Turkey to join the EU. If they meet the criteria then it could be considered. However a country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc and in 10 years Turkey managed to adopt just one of the 35 policy areas in 'science a research', in most other areas it hasn't even made a start. So for the Brexit campaign to claim that Turkey is imminently about to join the EU is pure fantasy on the same level as the £350 million a day Garbage that they have been peddling. There is also the issue of the unresolved territorial dispute with Cyprus so yes there is a chance that in the distant future Turkey may join the EU but that is so far off its hardly worth worrying about.

You are using the word imminently, but nobody else has.

The real issue here is deceit. For David Cameron to say that on the one hand there is no prospect of Turkey joining the EU, and "don't think about it", and on the other hand say that he is going to work to try to make it happen, "I will remain [Turkey's] strongest possible advocate for EU membership." is deceitful. There's no way around it.

If he had any honor or decency he would be honest about his position and defend it. Instead he is trying to mislead people.

He says it's not going to happen, it's not on the cards. On the other hand, as you concede, one day, it will happen. When people say Turkey will join the EU, they are not lying, you are just moving the goal posts. & Yes it is precisely like the 350M issue. It's not going to happen (yet) is the same kind of deceit as 350M is not true (ly sent).

 

[yxee]

If we vote leave Cameron should be ousted. he cannot be trusted to execute the job

 

[Bladders]

If we vote leave Cameron should be ousted. he cannot be trusted to execute the job

He'll resign the next day


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[The Rivet]

Did Cameron really say this today?


Britain's influence in the European Union will be stronger if it votes to remain in the bloc in a June 23 referendum, Prime Minister David Cameron said on Sunday with the latest polls showing Britons almost evenly split over whether to stay or go.

One poll published late on Saturday gave a two-point lead to supporters of "Remain" and the other showed those in favor of Brexit were one point ahead.

In an interview on BBC television, Cameron - whose "In" campaign has been branded as scaremongering by pro-Brexit supporters for warning of the risks of quitting the 28-nation EU - highlighted the advantages of staying.

"If we wake up on June 24 and we are in, Britain's authority within the EU will be stronger," he said.

This Reuters piece didn't disclose which polls. (at least I don't think they did)

 

[JC Footy Genius]

'Flooding the jobs market'? Funny thing is the Brexit side is painting a picture of all these immigrants sitting on their arses claiming benefits!

I worked for a nationwide cleaning and security company, it employed around 7000 people on near to national minimum wage, funny thing is it was almost exclusively migrants calling up asking for work. There were always jobs available but the English born people on benefits didn't seem to be interested!

The number of foreign-born people of working age in the UK increased from 2.9 million in 1993 to 6.6 million in 2014.

Compared to the early 2000s, the presence of foreign-born workers has grown fastest in relatively low-skilled sectors and occupations. The increase in the share of foreign-born workers was fastest among process operatives (e.g. transport drivers, food, drink and tobacco process operators), up from 8.5% in 2002 to 32.0% in 2014.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-labour-market-overview

Flooding the jobs market.

I don't think the Brexit side are claiming they are sitting on their arses they are saying the rate of immigration is too high and unsustainable for numerous valid reasons.

Funnily enough it's Cameron who seems to think migrants come for the benefits which is why he negotiated a minor change for new EU migrants ability to claim and has suggested this is likely to help lower the numbers. Which it isn't.

 

[Two Professors]

Unbelievable. It's a survey by Ipsos mori - an independent polling company not the newspaper's opinions. Your reaction is hilarious as you would obviously rather believe what the Sun tells you then the findings of a survey by a reputable research company, whose entire reputation is based on being independent and objective as possible. Unfortunately it's idiots like you who are preventing people from being properly informed about the debate.

Well you learn something every day.Ipsos-Mori,a polling company who get most of their work through various Government departments,is completely independent and non-biased.In other news,the tooth-fairy and mad-hatter have backed Remain.

 

[Half Time Pies]

You are using the word imminently, but nobody else has.

The real issue here is deceit. For David Cameron to say that on the one hand there is no prospect of Turkey joining the EU, and "don't think about it", and on the other hand say that he is going to work to try to make it happen, "I will remain [Turkey's] strongest possible advocate for EU membership." is deceitful. There's no way around it.

If he had any honor or decency he would be honest about his position and defend it. Instead he is trying to mislead people.

He says it's not going to happen, it's not on the cards. On the other hand, as you concede, one day, it will happen. When people say Turkey will join the EU, they are not lying, you are just moving the goal posts. & Yes it is precisely like the 350M issue. It's not going to happen (yet) is the same kind of deciet as 350M is not true (ly sent).

Well I haven't seen him say that there is no prospect of Turkey joining the EU ever. What I heard is him say there is no prospect of them joining the EU for decades, which is absolutely true!

Certainly the impression the the leave campaign are giving is it is imminent. Thats what many potential leave voters I have been spoken to have been lead to believe and many are panicked by the prospect.

I for one hope that Turkey does get its act together eventually and adopt the types of reforms that are needed to be considered. Surely having Turkey adopt the core EU values of Human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights would be better for everyone..no??!

 

[looney]

Those weren't my words, they are the words of economist Ha-Joon Chang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-Joon_Chang

He is a Marxist economist(whatever that is) and a fringe Kook.He uses the kind of logiic more common among anti-vaxxers.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

What! Those are adjectives I'd use to describe any tory government!

Nevertheless, the facts and logic must be as unsettling for you as they're chilling for me.

I see a study also shows that over 80% of Guardian readers are supporting Remain .... a firm indicator I have made the right choice.

 

[dingodan]

...the core EU values of Human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights would be better for everyone..no??!

What?

Those are British values, and that includes democracy, which is certainly not an EU value.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Eh? It's the findings of a survey by Ipsos Mori, not a journalist's opinions. Yet more ignorance. Perhaps you'd prefer to believe the Daily Express?

Actually, I think you're right, I read that article again and i disagree with my earlier assertions. I must have been feeling particularly bellicose this morning. And as for the express? Give me a break!

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[dingodan]

He is a Marxist economist(whatever that is) and a fringe Kook.He uses the kind of logiic more common among anti-vaxxers.

& actually, I don't agree with his economics. But I quoted him not on his economics, but rather on his view about economists. He is considered an "expert". & just like he, in his own humility points out, that actually means very little when it comes to economics.

He's hardly a fringe kook.

Currently a Reader in the Political Economy of Development at the University of Cambridge, Chang is the author of several widely discussed policy books, most notably Kicking Away the Ladder: Development Strategy in Historical Perspective (2002).[4][5][6] Chang was ranked by Prospect magazine as one of the top 20 World Thinkers in 2013.[7]

He has served as a consultant to the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the European Investment Bank, as well as to Oxfam[8] and various United Nations agencies.[9] He is also a fellow at the Center for Economic and Policy Research[10] in Washington, D.C. In addition, Chang serves on the advisory board of Academics Stand Against Poverty (ASAP).

 

[Half Time Pies]

The number of foreign-born people of working age in the UK increased from 2.9 million in 1993 to 6.6 million in 2014.

Compared to the early 2000s, the presence of foreign-born workers has grown fastest in relatively low-skilled sectors and occupations. The increase in the share of foreign-born workers was fastest among process operatives (e.g. transport drivers, food, drink and tobacco process operators), up from 8.5% in 2002 to 32.0% in 2014.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-labour-market-overview

Flooding the jobs market.

I don't think the Brexit side are claiming they are sitting on their arses they are saying the rate of immigration is too high and unsustainable for numerous valid reasons.

Funnily enough it's Cameron who seems to think migrants come for the benefits which is why he negotiated a minor change for new EU migrants ability to claim and has suggested this is likely to help lower the numbers. Which it isn't.

My point was in response to your claim that 'those on the 'lowest rungs' including low/semi workers and the unemployed experience first hand the joys of being exposed to mass immigration flooding the jobs market' like migration is somehow a threat to unemployed people in Britain getting a job. However In my experience this just doesn't add up, fact is there are plenty of jobs out there for the British born unemployed but they simply don't want to do them, they would rather stay unemployed and on Benefits.

Until there is a sea change in attitudes to work the percentage of foreign workers in low skilled sectors will continue to go up as largely speaking migrants are the only people willing to take these types of jobs.

 

[looney]

& actually, I don't agree with his economics. But I quoted him not on his economics, but rather on his view about economists. He is considered an "expert". & just like he, in his own humility points out, that actually means very little when it comes to economics.

He's hardly a fringe kook.

Hes a marxist, what do you think his opinions on economists working in the City, banks Government etc are going to be like? Yes he is a fringe Kook, writing in the Guardian.

 

[Half Time Pies]

What?

Those are British values, and that includes democracy, which is certainly not an EU value.

I will be the first to admit that the EU has a Democratic deficit, however it is a collection of democratic states with similar core values. Turkey on the other hand is currently in danger of sliding in to Depotism.

 

[dingodan]

Hes a marxist, what do you think his opinions on economists working in the City, banks Government etc are going to be like? Yes he is a fringe Kook, writing in the Guardian.

Given that he is an economist, his views about economists also extend to himself. As for calling people kooks, and strawman arguments like invoking "anti-vaxxers", you are just too intellectually lazy to have a conversation with, let's just not bother.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

My point was in response to your claim that 'those on the 'lowest rungs' including low/semi workers and the unemployed experience first hand the joys of being exposed to mass immigration flooding the jobs market' like migration is somehow a threat to unemployed people in Britain getting a job. However In my experience this just doesn't add up, fact is there are plenty of jobs out there for the British born unemployed but they simply don't want to do them, they would rather stay unemployed and on Benefits.

Until there is a sea change in attitudes to work the percentage of foreign workers in low skilled sectors will continue to go up as largely speaking migrants are the only people willing to take these types of jobs.

That falls into the rather unhelpful stereotype that the unemployed choose to remain in this situation as a lifestyle choice. I thought it was also the case that people claiming jobseekers must take any suitable available work on offer or face losing their benefits.

Over 50% of new jobs went to foreign born migrants in the last parliament which obviously limits the opportunities for people here. A Bank of England report recently found migration (including from the EU) has suppressed wages for low/semi skilled workers, the more migrants the bigger the effect.