[Politics] Brexit

[clapham_gull]

As these polls are by nature inaccurate, I found the other results more interesting than the main one.

To me it displayed the leave vote was a bit more complicated than some like to portray it.

There was obviously a fair few who voted remain but never trusted Farage or Johnson.

Possibly an older generation who never felt comfortable in the EU but know a rubbish politician when they see one.

There was also a depressing sub note to those who believe we should have a new vote for 1) Younger generation 2) Those who weren't able to vote last time.

48 percent of young voters have no intention of voting in a second referendum.




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[clapham_gull]

Survation did the poll with 20K people. 54% are now Remain 46% Leave

The UK has 66,000,000 people living in it. You only need 5,000 for a survey with a very strong confidence. Survation and C4 polled over 20,000.

What that means is you can hate the result of the survey all you like, but the methodology is definitely robust. #c4Brexit



One of the Brexit red lines is Freedom of Movement

[tweet]1059538156243034113[/tweet]

I think the language is important though.

I'm a remainer but only the hardened Brexiteer would say you should never be allowed to live and work in another country.

They did pick up that point in the programme.

If the question had been - Should people in the EU have the absolute right to work in the UK without controls ? It would have been a closer result.

I'm not sure the main result should be that surprising.

Opinion swings all the time.

When we leave, give it a couple of years and ask the same questions again.


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[Thunder Bolt]

I think the language is important though.

I'm a remainer but only the hardened Brexiteer would say you should never be allowed to live and work in another country.

They did pick up that point in the programme.

If the question had been - Should people in the EU have the absolute right to work in the UK without controls ? It would have been a closer result.

I'm not sure the main result should be that surprising.

Opinion swings all the time.

When we leave, give it a couple of years and ask the same questions again.

The tragedy of it is, the controls have been there all along. Anyone wanting to stay for more than 90 days (3 months) had to have work or enough money to support themselves and health insurance.
We chose not to have exit checks, and so check when people left, and didn't use the controls available to us via the EU.

It was easy for the leave campaign to distort the truth for people who were unsure what they were voting for.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

 

[clapham_gull]

The tragedy of it is, the controls have been there all along. Anyone wanting to stay for more than 90 days (3 months) had to have work or enough money to support themselves and health insurance.
We chose not to have exit checks, and so check when people left, and didn't use the controls available to us via the EU.

It was easy for the leave campaign to distort the truth for people who were unsure what they were voting for.

Yes but that's not my point. I think there was a realisation that the way the question was asked affected the result, so it's difficult to infer much from the answer.

Looks a bit skewed against the main result.


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[pastafarian]

Survation did the poll with 20K people. 54% are now Remain 46% Leave

The UK has 66,000,000 people living in it. You only need 5,000 for a survey with a very strong confidence. Survation and C4 polled over 20,000.

What that means is you can hate the result of the survey all you like, but the methodology is definitely robust. #c4Brexit



One of the Brexit red lines is Freedom of Movement

[tweet]1059538156243034113[/tweet]

We rightly dont decide matters on telephone polls of 20,000 people. There would be far too much error in that.
Actually casting a ballot that is backed by an act of parliament is where it is at, you know like over 17 million, not 20000, did in 2016.

Typical C4 spin adding the word "freely" onto twitter

The question was.
After Brexit, UK and EU citizens who wished to do so, could live and work in each other’s countries......freely was not in the question

I would have ticked agree as well, if you want to go live and work in another country knock yourself out, just make sure you get permission to do so first before you cross their borders.

 

[beorhthelm]

The tragedy of it is, the controls have been there all along. Anyone wanting to stay for more than 90 days (3 months) had to have work or enough money to support themselves and health insurance.
We chose not to have exit checks, and so check when people left, and didn't use the controls available to us via the EU.

It was easy for the leave campaign to distort the truth for people who were unsure what they were voting for.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

its not exit checks (how could you apply them to EU citizens?), its a lack of resident or citizen registration, with unrestricted access at point of service. we need to impose some forms of registration, probably identity card to make anything work properly.

 

[clapham_gull]

Even too toxic for Channel 4 would have been the question - Should we have a second referendum ?

Missed opportunity.

That's really the only answer thing I would have sat up and listened to.

Simply stating I've changed my mind doesn't necessarily mean I want another go at it.

So bit of an odd one for Channel 4 and struggling to see the point.




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[pastafarian]

The tragedy of it is, the controls have been there all along. Anyone wanting to stay for more than 90 days (3 months) had to have work or enough money to support themselves and health insurance.
We chose not to have exit checks, and so check when people left, and didn't use the controls available to us via the EU.

It was easy for the leave campaign to distort the truth for people who were unsure what they were voting for.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

You do not have to have work within 90 days to remain here, thats simply untrue, you can stay in any country after 90 days if you are a jobseeker. The host country must in every single instance prove that not only are you not actively seeking work but they must prove you have no realistic chance of ever finding work as well. Unemployed EU citizens have rights beyond 90 days.
Checking up on people months after they have entered anyway is not adequate border control, never has been and never will be.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

its not exit checks (how could you apply them to EU citizens?), its a lack of resident or citizen registration, with unrestricted access at point of service. we need to impose some forms of registration, probably identity card to make anything work properly.

Some light reading for you.
Section 20:17 and 20:18 explains what happened in 1998 with regard to controls.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

 

[pastafarian]

You need to try harde than that, the press have long known all about Russian influence in UK political circles, it’s why Mandelson and Osbourne were on Oleg Deripaska’s yacht a few years ago....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...oversy-how-the-world-really-works-973817.html

This is the Oleg Deripaska that is sanctioned in the US by Trump, but allowed to list businesses in the UK, and is not subject to EU or UK sanctions....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ssian-oligarchs-using-city-to-avoid-sanctions

Good on Trump......I’m sure you will agree?

Not sure how this post got you removed from this thread yet again.........its almost as if someone has a personal agenda against you.
Poor show.

 

[clapham_gull]

We rightly dont decide matters on telephone polls of 20,000 people. There would be far too much error in that.
Actually casting a ballot that is backed by an act of parliament is where it is at, you know like over 17 million, not 20000, did in 2016.

Typical C4 spin adding the word "freely" onto twitter

The question was.
After Brexit, UK and EU citizens who wished to do so, could live and work in each other’s countries......freely was not in the question

I would have ticked agree as well, if you want to go live and work in another country knock yourself out, just make sure you get permission to do so first before you cross their borders.

I think it's fair to say the poll was pretty accurate though, just not that surprising.

The referendum has put people into boxes, but many would voted differently on different days of the week.

There really is no right or wrong on Brexit, The country is split right down the middle and hasn't changed much apparently even after tonight.

I'm actually quite supportive of what the Government is trying to do. Build a consensus in the middle by pissing those off at the extremes.

The most interesting thing tonight were the questions on Boris and Farage. Only 20% thought they would do a better job.

I loosely infer from that the country at large think May although far from perfect is the best we have.

The results mean nothing about whether there should be a second vote, which is a shame - but I suspect far too politically, loaded even for Channel 4.

 

[pastafarian]

Some light reading for you.
Section 20:17 and 20:18 explains what happened in 1998 with regard to controls.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

Thanks for that.
In conclusion, liberalising controls leads to increased numbers and a rise in bogus applications.
Yep........end free movement and take back control of our EU borders then.

 

[pastafarian]

I think it's fair to say the poll was pretty accurate though, just not that surprising.

The referendum has put people into boxes, but many would voted differently on different days of the week.

There really is no right or wrong on Brexit, The country is split right down the middle and hasn't changed much apparently even after tonight.

I'm actually quite supportive of what the Government is trying to do. Build a consensus in the middle by pissing those off at the extremes.

The most interesting thing tonight were the questions on Boris and Farage. Only 20% thought they would do a better job.

I loosely infer from that the country at large think May although far from perfect is the best we have.

The results mean nothing about whether there should be a second vote, which is a shame - but I suspect far too politically, loaded even for Channel 4.

I didnt watch it, C4 just stokes up more division.Its all rather irrelevant given there was already a vote to Leave
I did look up that particular question though as i suspected the word "freely" used on twitter by C4 was not really in the actual question......quelle surprise.

 

[clapham_gull]

I didnt watch it, C4 just stokes up more division.Its all rather irrelevant given there was already a vote to Leave
I did look up that particular question though as i suspected the word "freely" used on twitter by C4 was not really in the actual question......quelle surprise.

No division at all. The only thing that stoked up division was the referendum.

The whole debate was surprisingly civil, unlike the campaign.

The biggest boo of the night was directed at Farage who claimed to be the only Leaver in the room. It appeared to come mostly from the 50% of the invited audience who voted the same way.

Poor man seemed genuinely shocked that even leavers can't stand the sight of him.

 

[pastafarian]

No division at all. The only thing that stoked up division was the referendum.

The whole debate was surprisingly civil, unlike the campaign.

The biggest boo of the night was directed at Farage who claimed to be the only Leaver in the room. It appeared to come mostly from the 50% of the invited audience who voted the same way.

Poor man seemed genuinely shocked that even leavers can't stand the sight of him.

And that referendum campaign division was ended when the result was announced........or should have been.
The division now is 100% the fault of remoaners (not the same as remainers) who stamped their feet, do not accept the result and refuse to allow the democratic vote to reach its conclusion whereby we are out of the EU. They are throwing the kitchen sink at every possible way to try and stop it.......they are the culprits now of division, no one else.

 

[clapham_gull]

And that referendum campaign division was ended when the result was announced........or should have been.
The division now is 100% the fault of remoaners (not the same as remainers) who stamped their feet, do not accept the result and refuse to allow the democratic vote to reach its conclusion whereby we are out of the EU. They are throwing the kitchen sink at every possible way to try and stop it.......they are the culprits now of division, no one else.

I'm not where you have been for the last year.

No-one can agree HOW to leave the EU, that's the issue. The "people's vote" is a side issue, possibly a solution to end the deadlock, possibility not.

What was conclusive from the poll (probably the only thing) - was the vision of Farage and Johnson has not been accepted.

Their relatively simple take on things is not widely supported. I suspect out of EU but within the Customs Union would get a the majority vote if asked. A solution to the Northern Ireland border at the expense of Freedom of Movement.

Farage called it a "Leavers Brexit", which ironically is probably the best solution all round.

What we think as an individuals is irreverent.

 

[beorhthelm]

Some light reading for you.
Section 20:17 and 20:18 explains what happened in 1998 with regard to controls.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

says immigration increased under Blair's Labour, without discussion, by design and accidently.

 

[nicko31]

And that referendum campaign division was ended when the result was announced........or should have been.
The division now is 100% the fault of remoaners (not the same as remainers) who stamped their feet, do not accept the result and refuse to allow the democratic vote to reach its conclusion whereby we are out of the EU. They are throwing the kitchen sink at every possible way to try and stop it.......they are the culprits now of division, no one else.

The division has been created by the Tory party, Remoaners and Brexiteers are their creation under their watch.

Thought Lucas was the standout performer last night, wish there were most politician with her common sense on both sides.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not sure how this post got you removed from this thread yet again.........its almost as if someone has a personal agenda against you.
Poor show.

How do you know when someone's been removed from a thread and the reasons or specific post ?

I can't see anything in the moderating area

 

[The Clamp]

Do you people really not understand, when you use terms like "vile" Tories, you lose any sense of credibility to the casual reader?

Sure your lefties friends will all **** themselves off over your comments, but its not them you are trying to convince is it?

The Tories are in power, so enough people must have voted for them who don't think they are vile.

I really don't understand why you lot continue to bash them like you do. Honestly, try and make a sensible argument, without pathetic childish name calling, you never know, people might actually take you seriously.

People have been saying the NHS will be dead in five years for as long as I can remember.Still there. And will be in 20 years time. But I think the days of solving its problems is just by throwing more money at it are long gone.

The current Tory Government are vile. Useless, vile, careerist, me first, money grubbing tosspots. To a man.
As I have quite plainly pointed out in here before I am right of centre. A traditionalist with some leaning to the left on issues of social reform. I have voted Tory before and hope to again some day.
So you can pop your Alan’s back on and straighten out your hairpiece now Dorothy, it’s all over.