[Politics] Brexit

[larus]

[tweet]1036527065657421824[/tweet]

Just like to make an observation. There appears to be civility on this thread now. [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION], [MENTION=805]Kalimantan Gull[/MENTION], [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] (to name a few) are asking questions/replying and there seems to be less insults/snide comments.

Just because we voted leave doesn’t mean we’re thick, racist, xenophobic and it’s refreshing to see debate and less vitriol.

Can it last?

Maybe I spoke too soon eh. Posting something which accuses leavers as being small-minded, unfair and racist.

 

[Two Professors]

[tweet]1036527065657421824[/tweet]

Funny that.I thought his film company was called British Lion Films,not Euro Fantasy Productions.

 

[sir albion]

As you acknowledge project fear, do you accept that a number of people will have been influenced to vote Remain by the scare stories?

In regards future referenda, then another gripe of the leavers is that the original referendum was built on lies by Heath. He knew that the ultimate goal of the EEC was to become a single state. This was never mentioned in the original vote, so we joined on more lies from the establishment.

Then, over time the EU has morphed from the EEC, via various treaties, into becoming the EU. At no point have we been consulted about this gradual loss of sovereignty. Do you honestly believe that, if there were another referendum now about the EU and it was remain, that the public would be given another choice in the future when the next steps towards closer integration are made? Make no mistake, this is a journey for the EU and the current state (as in position not country ) is not the end goal.
Of course not - this is our only shot to be free from the EU.

However, I do believe that the EU is ultimately doomed. The Euro cannot survive in its current structure - no serious economic writer thinks it’s viable as it currently works. The obvious solution of fiscal transfer won’t happen - the northern countries won’t transfer their wealth to other countries. So, we’re then left with either 2 different Euros, but this still doesn’t solve the Fiscal/Monetary conundrum, or soldiering on until the next downturn and the bond prices spike and means a country has to leave the Euro, destroying the myth of permanence. Next few months will be interesting when Italy prepares its budgets as wants to run a more expansionary policy which will blow the rules of the growth and stability pact.

So, bearing in mind I don’t believe we would ever get another opportunity to vote to leave, even if opinion wanted to, then I’m prepared for the disruption as, when the sh1t hits, which it will, I know that government, companies, individuals will work on solutions.

The disruption will be caused by regulatory issues more than WTO rules. WTO rules can be ‘ignored’ if both parties say they are working towards a FTA. And regulatory alignment is simple (if there’s a willingness by the EU to not be vindictive) as we are aligned already. If the EU say they don’t want to, then we should do a Singapore, reduce tariffs, reduce corporation taxes and attract companies to site their head-offices here (as per Juncker in his time as PM of Luxembourg).

Yes a good million watching the likes of Obama putting us bottom of his priorities even though the pillock wouldn't have been the president by the time we left.Not to mention the relentless collapse of our economy drivel and tax payers paying £9 million for remain leaflets.
All the remainers blab on about is the £350 million bus

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You're right something needs to be done. People who voted to remain need to accept that we want to leave the EU.

What is it I should accept though? If I listen to May it’s one thing. JRM it’s another. What are they planning?

As an aside, Norway isn’t in the EU and I will happily accept something like their arrangement. This will be the best outcome and actually better than the current situation. Do we agree?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

You're right something needs to be done. People who voted to remain need to accept that we want to leave the EU.

I have noticed a big gap in the Government strategy on this. It seemed obvious that they would need to employ a bit of a 'charm offensive', for want of a better term, to unite the country and bring the majority together.


Sadly we just got vacuous red, white and blue soundbites and no substance or detail on how the future will not be a disaster. Oh well, I suppose they just kicked that all down the road for the next lot to deal with. If they can be bothered.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yes a good million watching the likes of Obama putting us bottom of his priorities even though the pillock wouldn't have been the president by the time we left.Not to mention the relentless collapse of our economy drivel and tax payers paying £9 million for remain leaflets.
All the remainers blab on about is the £350 million bus

I was spot about the economy though.

 

[melias shoes]

What is it I should accept though? If I listen to May it’s one thing. JRM it’s another. What are they planning?

As an aside, Norway isn’t in the EU and I will happily accept something like their arrangement. This will be the best outcome and actually better than the current situation. Do we agree?

No. Out completely.

 

[larus]

I was spot about the economy though.

You like to make statements like this. Please provide proof of what you have stated before the vote and then we can discuss how accurate your predictions have been. Because we haven’t had a recession, we haven’t had a house price crash, interest rates have risen by 0.25% (which is mush less than the US but still is an encouraging sign as it moves away from ‘emergency’ rates), record levels of employment and lowest level of unemployment since 1975.

So I’m intrigued.

 

[melias shoes]

Possibly I did. But being open minded, and willing to listen, enables me to be able to change my mind.

Are you telling us that you've changed your mind and want to leave?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No. Out completely.

Okay. But there’s plenty of variations and as I say the Norway model is even better than the current situation.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

As you acknowledge project fear, do you accept that a number of people will have been influenced to vote Remain by the scare stories?

In regards future referenda, then another gripe of the leavers is that the original referendum was built on lies by Heath. He knew that the ultimate goal of the EEC was to become a single state. This was never mentioned in the original vote, so we joined on more lies from the establishment.

Then, over time the EU has morphed from the EEC, via various treaties, into becoming the EU. At no point have we been consulted about this gradual loss of sovereignty. Do you honestly believe that, if there were another referendum now about the EU and it was remain, that the public would be given another choice in the future when the next steps towards closer integration are made? Make no mistake, this is a journey for the EU and the current state (as in position not country ) is not the end goal.
Of course not - this is our only shot to be free from the EU.

However, I do believe that the EU is ultimately doomed. The Euro cannot survive in its current structure - no serious economic writer thinks it’s viable as it currently works. The obvious solution of fiscal transfer won’t happen - the northern countries won’t transfer their wealth to other countries. So, we’re then left with either 2 different Euros, but this still doesn’t solve the Fiscal/Monetary conundrum, or soldiering on until the next downturn and the bond prices spike and means a country has to leave the Euro, destroying the myth of permanence. Next few months will be interesting when Italy prepares its budgets as wants to run a more expansionary policy which will blow the rules of the growth and stability pact.

So, bearing in mind I don’t believe we would ever get another opportunity to vote to leave, even if opinion wanted to, then I’m prepared for the disruption as, when the sh1t hits, which it will, I know that government, companies, individuals will work on solutions.

The disruption will be caused by regulatory issues more than WTO rules. WTO rules can be ‘ignored’ if both parties say they are working towards a FTA. And regulatory alignment is simple (if there’s a willingness by the EU to not be vindictive) as we are aligned already. If the EU say they don’t want to, then we should do a Singapore, reduce tariffs, reduce corporation taxes and attract companies to site their head-offices here (as per Juncker in his time as PM of Luxembourg).

To answer your first question - absolutely yes, I'm sure that's the case. We've left a world where people relied on facts instead of memes and rumour a long time ago (I find myself in broad agreement with Mr Trump here).

For the rest, I respect your arguments, but I still don't see the benefit of this. Personally, as an anthropologist, I recognise that the great advances in human civilisation came as a result in banding together in ever greater unions. The greater the number of people pulling together in a single union, the stronger the economy, the health, the peacefulness and the culture of the people. Families became clans, became farming communities, villages, towns and ultimately countries, religions, companies, political parties, football clubs - whatever the organisation, the more people that believe in it, the stronger it will be. The EU is no different, it will absolutely be stronger, more prosperous, more successful than its individual member constituents AS LONG AS people believe in it. This of course is its current failing, too many people inside the EU don't believe in it or respect it, there are few great champions of the EU, and certainly not on our side of the channel. I would like to change that. What we need are better leaders, more charisma, a positive vision. Not an easy task, but at any rate, I'm just letting you know that I have no problem with the closer integration.

Interesting that you think that the EU is ultimately doomed - you may be right of course - but I also think that speaks to the desires of many on the Leave side of the argument - not to withdraw Britain from the EU, but to cause the downfall of the EU itself. After all, a UK outside the EU will inevitably be weaker, poorer and less influential than the remaining 26 in a strong EU - but the UK on its own compared to all the others on their own - we will be strong and powerful once again. All of the benefits being promised by the Leave campaign apply in a world where there is no EU. My old aunts assertion that I shouldn't worry about Brexit because 'Britain was great before the EU, we'll be great again outside the EU' - harks back to a time when we were all individual states, but not to a future where the EU continues to exist and prosper.

Me, I don't want the disruption. My small little charitable business has already suffered in a number of ways and I don't want it to get worse. Its hurting me and it will hurt lots of other people. No-one has yet pointed me to anyone who is tangibly benefiting from this, well, other than Boris 'effin Johnson.

 

[pastafarian]

As I said, you have missed the point spectacularly. It is not about snap elections.

You posted something from twitter about May saying in 2016 there should be no election until 2020.(obviously there was)
You then enforced your drama by explaining May said it several times but there was actually an election well before 2020.

May said several times there would be no General Election. There was on 8th June 2017.

You dont need to read a twitter thread to know you are talking about snap elections.
If your thread goes off on a tangent to try and enforce a different point entirely then its the usual remoaner 2 + 2 equals clam chowder nonsense that isnt worth wasting your time on reading.

 

[pastafarian]

Liam Fox, July 2017

He didnt say the withdrawal agreement will be the easiest ever on the 20th July
He was talking about something different.( a Free Trade Agreement).....which comes after the withdrawal agreement, but not a lot of remainers seem to know this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-human-history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-406...-human-history

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are you telling us that you've changed your mind and want to leave?

As I said, the Norway model is actually a better deal. I would be happy with this.

 

[pastafarian]

As an aside, Norway isn’t in the EU and I will happily accept something like their arrangement. This will be the best outcome and actually better than the current situation. Do we agree?

Try and keep up. Even the EU have dismissed the Norway option.
Barnier presented one of drawings ages ago.



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sit...e_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You like to make statements like this. Please provide proof of what you have stated before the vote and then we can discuss how accurate your predictions have been. Because we haven’t had a recession, we haven’t had a house price crash, interest rates have risen by 0.25% (which is mush less than the US but still is an encouraging sign as it moves away from ‘emergency’ rates), record levels of employment and lowest level of unemployment since 1975.

So I’m intrigued.

I can’t be arsed. But everything is in this thread; go look for yourself. The general gist, like many Remainers suggested, is that overall cost of living will go up; it has. Inflation will rise, it has. Mortgages will increase, they have. House prices will fall, they have https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cord-biggest-month-on-month-fall-in-six-years. The economy will tank, it has. You might use employment as a measure but you are (probably deliberately) ignoring the bigger picture; the economy is, overall, weaker and less productive than before the referendum https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-7147-11e7-93ff-99f383b09ff9 . I never said anything about a recession, but if you want to bring this into the mix British manufacturing is now in recession.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Try and keep up. Even the EU have dismissed the Norway option.
Barnier presented one of drawings ages ago.

View attachment 100275

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sit...e_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf

Read what I wrote in #58118, and read what he said. Do keep up....as you say.

 

[portslade seagull]

I can’t be arsed. But everything is in this thread; go look for yourself. The general gist, like many Remainers suggested, is that overall cost of living will go up; it has. Inflation will rise, it has. Mortgages will increase, they have. House prices will fall, they have https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cord-biggest-month-on-month-fall-in-six-years. The economy will tank, it has. You might use employment as a measure but you are (probably deliberately) ignoring the bigger picture; the economy is, overall, weaker and less productive than before the referendum https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-7147-11e7-93ff-99f383b09ff9 . I never said anything about a recession, but if you want to bring this into the mix British manufacturing is now in recession.

What a load of waffle. Economy tanked ?? Really. According to the remain propoganda b4 the vote we should now be destitute not flying like we are

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What a load of waffle. Economy tanked ?? Really. According to the remain propoganda b4 the vote we should now be destitute not flying like we are

Flying? The only flying is what you did to reach the planet you’re on. Look at the 5 graphs the FT produced a month ago, the link is above. If you disagree with them then be my guest and explain why.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

People are forgetting that Barnier is going to give us a bespoke deal, not seen before or given to any other country.
Why aren't we waiting for that it may be the answer everyone wants.
It would be funny if after all that has happened over the past few years it's actually Barnier that comes up with the answer in a day.
That will really make our lot look more stupid than they actually are.