[Politics] Brexit

[Wrong-Direction]

Politics is like religion, you're all wrong.

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[Lincoln Imp]

Thinking that describing it as 'a call for the public to be consulted on the terms of negotiations' somehow hides the fact that they want to overturn the democratic result of the referendum = political naivety at best, being in denial at worst.

I don't understand. They are suggesting another vote when more information is available. What's undemocratic about that? Are you suggesting that once we have had one vote we should never have another? Does your rule apply to elections? I remember when we had two elections in one year because of changing circumstances - do you think that that was undemocratic?

PS in case you're planning one of those 'Typical Remoaner' charges, remember that Farage started agitating for a second referendum even before we had the last one, just because he thought he'd lose in June. Most Brexit enthusiasts regarded that as gritty determination of course.

 

[larus]

Politics is like religion, you're all wrong.

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Why don't you go and get some crayons and play with the toddlers. You add nothing. If it doesn't interest you f*ck off and let the adults talk.

 

[larus]

I don't understand. They are suggesting another vote when more information is available. What's undemocratic about that? Are you suggesting that once we have had one vote we should never have another? Does your rule apply to elections? I remember when we had two elections in one year because of changing circumstances - do you think that that was undemocratic?

PS in case you're planning one of those 'Typical Remoaner' charges, remember that Farage started agitating for a second referendum even before we had the last one, just because he thought he'd lose in June. Most Brexit enthusiasts regarded that as gritty determination of course.

I assume then that you'd be happy to have another vote in say 2 years if the next vote is for remain?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Why don't you go and get some crayons and play with the toddlers. You add nothing. If it doesn't interest you f*ck off and let the adults talk.

Lol yeah you're doing a great job you f****** pleb

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[studio150]

There was a chart posted about 3-4 pages back based on wage growth and Greece was on the same level as the UK (-10.4% I believe). As (from memory) you had commented on that chart, I took your last post to be linked to that chart.

Irrespective, my point stands. No-one but a f*cking retard could seriously try to link the severe crisis in Greece and the hang-over effect from the Financial Crisis on the UK. By all means have a sensible debate, but if you want to espouse crap like that then you lose all credibility. FFS, there's youth unemployment of 50% in Greece, and all this is exacerbated by the fact that the EURO cannot work with Fiscal and Poliical integration which is not on the horizon for a long, long time. Yet you will still defend this whole monstrosity for some strange deluded reason.

A very generous rounding up to 50%

 

[DataPoint]

Who or what do you blame then? The UK is at the bottom of wage growth with ****ing Greece. Germany, Poland, Hungary plus others are all increasing. The UK Is on a par with ****ing Greece. How the hell has the 6 biggest economy in the world got itself into such a state? I'll give you one reason, it's people like you who just accept it. Like a number of things I don't actually care what political colour you are but what I do care about is the fact you are doing **** all about it apart from acquiescing on a website. All the while there is plenty of cash sloshing around in the higher echelons you of all people should be kicking up a fuss and shouting from the roof tops about your wage stagnation. Not complaining and having a stiff upper lip is very lilly livered. Grow some balls.

Let me think? What can we do? I know.... there of course is the German way - arrange a Crystal night.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There was a chart posted about 3-4 pages back based on wage growth and Greece was on the same level as the UK (-10.4% I believe). As (from memory) you had commented on that chart, I took your last post to be linked to that chart.

Irrespective, my point stands. No-one but a f*cking retard could seriously try to link the severe crisis in Greece and the hang-over effect from the Financial Crisis on the UK. By all means have a sensible debate, but if you want to espouse crap like that then you lose all credibility. FFS, there's youth unemployment of 50% in Greece, and all this is exacerbated by the fact that the EURO cannot work with Fiscal and Poliical integration which is not on the horizon for a long, long time. Yet you will still defend this whole monstrosity for some strange deluded reason.

I'm really not sure what point(s) you're trying to make now. As others have liked or agree with me (including my political opposite [MENTION=12182]portslade[/MENTION] gull) I think my posts were reasonably clear. You appear to be quite angry, and have read something which wasn't intended and have taken it off in a few different directions. My post was just a very general grumble about U.K. Wages and the fact that U.K. wage growth is similar to Greece's yet the U.K. has a far bigger economy. No link, just a comparison.

 

[GT49er]

I don't understand. They are suggesting another vote when more information is available. What's undemocratic about that? Are you suggesting that once we have had one vote we should never have another?

I'm suggesting that when we have had a democratic referendum, those who don't like the result should accept the will of the majority. Anybody who seriously believes that the Lib Dems, despite whatever weasel words they come up with, aren't hell bent on overturning the result of the referendum is deluding themselves.

Does your rule apply to elections? I remember when we had two elections in one year because of changing circumstances - do you think that that was undemocratic?

Circumstances didn't change in 1974. Wilson had been running the country on a day to day basis with a minority government, and went to the country to ask them to endorse what his government had been doing, which we did.

 

[larus]

A very generous rounding up to 50%

Yes, the lucky youths in Greece, now tumbling down to 46.5%. Bet they are going to party hard this NY.




An we have idiots on this thread trying to compare the UK to Greece. I can see why they believed the Remain sides lies as they don't have the ability for independent thoughts.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Describing a call for the public to be consulted on the terms of negotiations as undemocratic extremism = nuttiness in mine.

Post #24191 covers it. If you really believe that's their overriding motivation then you suffer from unbelievable naivety or a sudden bout of expedient self-delusion.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I've just realised what they have done here which is very disingenuous. They have taken a starting point when Sterling was overvalued against the Euro.

View attachment 80582

See the rate in 2007 was over 1.52, so they have taken an over-inflated rate and then used that in the comparison. Why not take the end of 2008 when the rate was 1.02 and use this for comparison.

See, COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLL*CKS. Don't waste our time with SH*T like this.

1 A 10 year comparison does not start at a point that supports your perspective. It starts 10 years ago. Yes this is very convenient for the comparison that is being made, but my reason for posting this, was that I am more than a little bored of JC Footy Genius repeatedly posting trumped up economic good news to demonstrate how wrong Brexit doomsayers were. I suspect many investors and business folk now expect a soft exit, but we will have to wait and see, just how good or bad Brexit really is for the UK economy.
2 High unemployment should drive down wages, but the unemployed are not paid a wage, I am not sure why but you seem unclear on this point.
3 No one is wasting your time other than you. There is no compulsion for you or anyone else in your team (strange use of "our time" who else is Team Larus?), to either post here, or repudiate any arguments made here.

 

[larus]

1 A 10 year comparison does not start at a point that supports your perspective. It starts 10 years ago. Yes this is very convenient for the comparison that is being made, but my reason for posting this, was that I am more than a little bored of JC Footy Genius repeatedly posting trumped up economic good news to demonstrate how wrong Brexit doomsayers were. I suspect many investors and business folk now expect a soft exit, but we will have to wait and see, just how good or bad Brexit really is for the UK economy.
2 High unemployment should drive down wages, but the unemployed are not paid a wage, I am not sure why but you seem unclear on this point.
3 No one is wasting your time other than you. There is no compulsion for you or anyone else in your team (strange use of "our time" who else is Team Larus?), to either post here, or repudiate any arguments made here.

Just a short reply. Maths obviously isn't a strong point with you. You say 10 years, but the chart is from 2007, so it's 9 years and x moths/days, so purely chosen to manipulate reality. Yes, exchange rate changes impact relative earnings when comparing currencies.

If they wanted to do a proper comparison, they show 10 years and say 5 years.

So, my point stands. There is no way our wages have performed like Greece and the chart is COMPLETE AND UTTER B*LLOCKS.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Post #24191 covers it. If you really believe that's their overriding motivation then you suffer from unbelievable naivety or a sudden bout of expedient self-delusion.

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

Of course the LibDems would like to see the June 23 result overturned. So would I. So would everyone who feels we should remain in the EU. The point is HOW.

It is not LibDem policy to simply ignore the June result. But it is their policy that people should be asked for their views again when the proposed terms of our departure are known. You can agree or disagree with this policy and personally I'm not yet convinced about the practicalities of it.

But to come on here to tell me, with the air of a man about to reveal important news, that the reason the LibDems want a second referendum is because they think that the public will support Remain is quite bizarre. I know that! Everyone knows that!

Put it to the test. If Corbyn called for a general election next year would you be inclined to come on here ranting about "...that Corbyn... he only wants an election because he thinks the people will support him. Devious little sod." If you were to be consistent that's exactly what you'd say.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Circumstances didn't change in 1974. Wilson had been running the country on a day to day basis with a minority government, and went to the country to ask them to endorse what his government had been doing, which we did.

I'd say that by definition the circumstances changed but I suspect we are arguing about semantics.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

Of course the LibDems would like to see the June 23 result overturned. So would I. So would everyone who feels we should remain in the EU. The point is HOW.

It is not LibDem policy to simply ignore the June result. But it is their policy that people should be asked for their views again when the proposed terms of our departure are known. You can agree or disagree with this policy and personally I'm not yet convinced about the practicalities of it.

But to come on here to tell me, with the air of a man about to reveal important news, that the reason the LibDems want a second referendum is because they think that the public will support Remain is quite bizarre. I know that! Everyone knows that!

Put it to the test. If Corbyn called for a general election next year would you be inclined to come on here ranting about "...that Corbyn... he only wants an election because he thinks the people will support him. Devious little sod." If you were to be consistent that's exactly what you'd say.

So to recap you do agree and support the Lib Dem's attempting to undermine/reverse the will of the majority before their wishes can be enacted. But you don't view this as in anyway extreme.

Lib Dem policy is to say they fully respect the referendum result while doing all they can to undermine/reverse it. This Inherently undemocratic stance, which even some Lib Dem members of the house of Lords found nauseating hence their resignations has bog all to do with any realistic chance of reversing the result. You really believe the Lib Dem leadership think the public will change their minds! It's all about party politics - saving/resurrecting their party, hoping to be vaguely relevant once more .. damn the consequences. Even good old Paddy said asking for a second referendum was contemptible and unforgivable.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So to recap you do agree and support the Lib Dem's attempting to undermine/reverse the will of the majority before their wishes can be enacted. But you don't view this as in anyway extreme.

Lib Dem policy is to say they fully respect the referendum result while doing all they can to undermine/reverse it. This Inherently undemocratic stance, which even some Lib Dem members of the house of Lords found nauseating hence their resignations has bog all to do with any realistic chance of reversing the result. You really believe the Lib Dem leadership think the public will change their minds! It's all about party politics - saving/resurrecting their party, hoping to be vaguely relevant once more .. damn the consequences. Even good old Paddy said asking for a second referendum was contemptible and unforgivable.

Undermine... Reverse... The rhetoric of propaganda. You tried it before and you try it again. The LibDems are simply proposing a further referendum when further information becomes available. There is nothing undemocratic about that. If it happens - unlikely given the political mathematics - I hope they get the result they want and you hope they don't. Calm down. Stop ranting.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Just a short reply. Maths obviously isn't a strong point with you. You say 10 years, but the chart is from 2007, so it's 9 years and x moths/days, so purely chosen to manipulate reality. Yes, exchange rate changes impact relative earnings when comparing currencies.

If they wanted to do a proper comparison, they show 10 years and say 5 years.

So, my point stands. There is no way our wages have performed like Greece and the chart is COMPLETE AND UTTER B*LLOCKS.

Let me read the graph for you - it is three days short of 10 years. The Bank of England spot rate for 29 Dec 2006 was 1.4841.

Now in the spirit of the festive season let me help you out here. The main problem with this analysis is that Exchange rates are a poor measure of relative purchasing power. So converting UK earnings into Euros is largely meaningless.Relative purchasing power would be more meaningful than wage growth. The Big Mac Index as proposed by the Economist is not to be taken too seriously, but it can be used to measure both the relative value of currencies and or the relative spending power, e.g. how many big macs can the disposable income of an average worker purchase. I suspect that the UK would not be close to Greece using this measure, but I also don't believe it would make for good reading..

 

[larus]

Let me read the graph for you - it is three days short of 10 years. The Bank of England spot rate for 29 Dec 2006 was 1.4841.

Now in the spirit of the festive season let me help you out here. The main problem with this analysis is that Exchange rates are a poor measure of relative purchasing power. So converting UK earnings into Euros is largely meaningless.Relative purchasing power would be more meaningful than wage growth. The Big Mac Index as proposed by the Economist is not to be taken too seriously, but it can be used to measure both the relative value of currencies and or the relative spending power, e.g. how many big macs can the disposable income of an average worker purchase. I suspect that the UK would not be close to Greece using this measure, but I also don't believe it would make for good reading..

I've just checked the chart you posted again. It says 2007 to 2015, which is 8 years, not 10 (or even just short of 10).

Also, you have to wonder why such a chart has been produced which goes to 2015 and not now.

And, in the season of goodwill etc, I acknowledge your comments that it is meaningless to take this as a single measure, but this was the message which you tried to portray, so I am sure you can understand the reaction it caused.

On better news, Forest have equalised.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Happy new year every one. This is Brexit - in their words - sampled to one of my favourites - GLC's 'Fresh Prince of Cwmbran'.