[Politics] Brexit

[wellquickwoody]

Those lazy Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese? Those would be the people who work the longest hours in Europe.

That's the trouble with the whole Brexit debate; no matter how many times people claims their leave vote is not driven by racism (and most people's vote wasn't), there are people like Woody cropping up with their racist stereotypes

We can all quote figures from selective sources, they do not always prove a great deal. But here are a few from the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development stats for 2012.

GDP per hour worked, US Dollars - France $59.50 Germany $58.30, Greece $34.50, Italy £46.70, Portugal $34.00, Spain $50.00, United Kingdom $48.50

Really doesn't PROVE that much because as we all know figures can be made to suit a viewpoint. Yours showed Greeks working the longest hours, is that the two jobs that some hold but only actually turn up for one? Mine show Italian output being similar to that in the UK, in reality production in the north around Milan and south is vastly different. Spain is the surprise at 50 USD, go figure huh? Yes I used generalisations, but racism is so far off the mark as to be funny. Maybe a case of pot (Brexitier) attempting to call kettle (remainer) black to deflect from themselves......

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Maybe a case of pot (Brexitier) attempting to call kettle (remainer) black to deflect from themselves......

Lolol!

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

 

[warmleyseagull]

Just out of interest, why would you like Italy to leave the Euro? Your arguments on here have been based almost entirely on what you feel is best for Britain, so, to put it more specifically, in what way do you think an Italian departure and the resulting collateral chaos in the Eurozone would be good for our country? (I ask because some have a feeling that among the various reasons for people voting Out was that they so much liked the idea of sticking two fingers up at certain foreign types - the men with shiny shoes and small moustaches as Matthew Parris once wonderfully defined them - that they didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result, even assuming that that prospect had occurred to them.)

I voted Remain in order to avoid the chaos, not out of any love for EU , which has become an unaccountable behemoth. I was prepared to let it go on basis that at some point the EU will have to reform and saw no great advantage to UK in leaving, and there was more chance of it reforming with us in. The problem IMO is that EU has vastly overstretched itself, which is a great shame as the core principle of a single market is great, and worth paying for (and putting up with free movement of people).

So don't confuse a dislike of an institution with xenophobia; a mistake a lot of Remainers make. I love France, often think the best of UK and France would be THE best country in the world. And have travelled and respect greatly the rest of Europe. The problem is NOT the people, not the countries; it is the institution.

So why do I indulge in schadenfreude for the Italians and hope for a bit of chaos? Basically for two reasons:

1. The euro is not sustainable; it never has been and never will be unless there is fiscal union. No single currency in a large country or bloc (and note the word large before Leichtenstein, Luxembourg pre euro and others get thrown back) has ever worked without fiscal union IN THE LONG RUN. It cannot because there is no central control over tax and spending. So we get what we got: PIGS countries spending like crazy for a few years; Ireland just about recovering but with a lot of pain; Spain and Portugal teetering; and Greece will never recover without a creditor haircut put off by Merkel for political convenience. We also get Germany exporting like crazy because their currency is under valued, and their citizens are too sensible to go on a foreign spending spree. (A favourite anecdote is that Greece, despite its problems, is one of the few countries in Europe that spends >2% of its GDP on defence. Part of the reason is that Greece buys submarines - yes, submarines! - from Germany on a contract signed years ago...). Italy just about avoided the PIGS fiasco but faces an enormous pension problem demographically as it has a declining workforce and an increasing supply of folk eligible for pensions (a generic problem for much of advanced world but particularly acute in italy). I could go on about the 360bn euros that the Italian banking sector needs but leave it with Analysis in today's Times: "...Italy is heading for economic meltdown, and the day of reckoning - the overhaul or break-up of the euro - cannot be avoided for ever.". The euro was always an unannounced undemocratic political Trojan Horse: force political unity on those in it by virtue of economic necessity.The problem is that economic crisis has presaged any serious move to unity.

2. Contrary to the assumption that I might be one of those who didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result of Brexit, I am of the view that the easiest and best Brexit solution for UK is if the EU is forced to reform. And it is not going to reform if folk vote for establishment parties; all we will get is more arrogance, intransigence and pomposity from the odious Juncker et al. I would claim I am actually MORE behind the UK staying in the single market (for that read also custom union, free trade area etc explained in this article) than those who think somehow that everyone else is right and all we in UK need to do is think like them. That won't happen; I am not into rights and wrongs, just practicalities. The best, probably only, way for us to get a satisfactory solution to Brexit (unless you are a hard Brexiteer who naively thinks like Suzanne West on HIGNFY last week that Europe depends on us more than us on them) is for the pendulum to swing our way, and we need populism to drive it. It is an entirely Machiavellian conclusion, I admit, and not to everyone's liking, but we are where we are.

 

[portslade seagull]

Looks like another referendum to become poorer, its becoming a common theme across the world

I suppose they are all racists as well then ?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

There have been some unfortunately intolerant attitudes emerging in this debate from remainers. The stereotype should be that the intolerance comes from leavers. But Yorkshire folk are thick and now whole swathes of southern Europe are lazy.

Given that the grand total of Remainers saying either of these things on this board is roughly two (and I suspect one of them was being ironic) do you think that you might be guilty of um, stereotyping?

 

[East Preston Gull]

I voted Remain in order to avoid the chaos, not out of any love for EU , which has become an unaccountable behemoth. I was prepared to let it go on basis that at some point the EU will have to reform and saw no great advantage to UK in leaving, and there was more chance of it reforming with us in. The problem IMO is that EU has vastly overstretched itself, which is a great shame as the core principle of a single market is great, and worth paying for (and putting up with free movement of people).

So don't confuse a dislike of an institution with xenophobia; a mistake a lot of Remainers make. I love France, often think the best of UK and France would be THE best country in the world. And have travelled and respect greatly the rest of Europe. The problem is NOT the people, not the countries; it is the institution.

So why do I indulge in schadenfreude for the Italians and hope for a bit of chaos? Basically for two reasons:

1. The euro is not sustainable; it never has been and never will be unless there is fiscal union. No single currency in a large country or bloc (and note the word large before Leichtenstein, Luxembourg pre euro and others get thrown back) has ever worked without fiscal union IN THE LONG RUN. It cannot because there is no central control over tax and spending. So we get what we got: PIGS countries spending like crazy for a few years; Ireland just about recovering but with a lot of pain; Spain and Portugal teetering; and Greece will never recover without a creditor haircut put off by Merkel for political convenience. We also get Germany exporting like crazy because their currency is under valued, and their citizens are too sensible to go on a foreign spending spree. (A favourite anecdote is that Greece, despite its problems, is one of the few countries in Europe that spends >2% of its GDP on defence. Part of the reason is that Greece buys submarines - yes, submarines! - from Germany on a contract signed years ago...). Italy just about avoided the PIGS fiasco but faces an enormous pension problem demographically as it has a declining workforce and an increasing supply of folk eligible for pensions (a generic problem for much of advanced world but particularly acute in italy). I could go on about the 360bn euros that the Italian banking sector needs but leave it with Analysis in today's Times: "...Italy is heading for economic meltdown, and the day of reckoning - the overhaul or break-up of the euro - cannot be avoided for ever.". The euro was always an unannounced undemocratic political Trojan Horse: force political unity on those in it by virtue of economic necessity.The problem is that economic crisis has presaged any serious move to unity.

2. Contrary to the assumption that I might be one of those who didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result of Brexit, I am of the view that the easiest and best Brexit solution for UK is if the EU is forced to reform. And it is not going to reform if folk vote for establishment parties; all we will get is more arrogance, intransigence and pomposity from the odious Juncker et al. I would claim I am actually MORE behind the UK staying in the single market (for that read also custom union, free trade area etc explained in this article) than those who think somehow that everyone else is right and all we in UK need to do is think like them. That won't happen; I am not into rights and wrongs, just practicalities. The best, probably only, way for us to get a satisfactory solution to Brexit (unless you are a hard Brexiteer who naively thinks like Suzanne West on HIGNFY last week that Europe depends on us more than us on them) is for the pendulum to swing our way, and we need populism to drive it. It is an entirely Machiavellian conclusion, I admit, and not to everyone's liking, but we are where we are.

For me, this is the greatest post ever written on the Brexit thread, and it's many predecessors. Top work.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[portslade seagull]

That post was nothing to do with racism. It's a fact that many immigrants have been underpaid and work in very bad conditions. The simple fact that they will do it does not justify it. Everyone, no matter what creed, colour or race, should be paid a fair wage. I don't know why that would be controversial?

Basically being screwed by big companies so they can make bigger profits. That's why they wanted to say in the EU

 

[larus]

Quite an interesting chat with a customer of ours this morning based in Madrid. He has a house outside Alicante and the majority of his neighbours are English ex pats.

One of the main issues they have is their residency rights, their pensions and health care. There are scaremonger rumours going around that as they are uk citizens with their pension being paid directly into bank accounts in Spain. They have ben told that this is tantamount to money laundering and will be subject to European laws, not the agreements currently in place.

He was suggesting that Spain could offer a type of resident visa, but the EU are not happy with that suggestion.

If we are supposed to be playing hard ball, with a hard brexit, it will be interesting what the people who actually live and work in the EU will have to do to remain? Certainly it will affect me as I look after six of our companies in Sweden, Ireland, France, Poland, Luxembourg and Belgium and having to get a visa every time I want to travel will be a pain....perhaps an ESTA type of form would be the answer.

Why would you need a visa? I don't need a visa to go to Switzerland. More panic/scaremongering on the basis of knowing very little.

 

[yxee]

For me, this is the greatest post ever written on the Brexit thread, and it's many predecessors. Top work.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

I agree.... Great post. It's so refreshing to read some proper arguments rather than repeated campaign slogans.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Given that the grand total of Remainers saying either of these things on this board is roughly two (and I suspect one of them was being ironic) do you think that you might be guilty of um, stereotyping?

Probably. And I am in no way wishing to slur you or any other remainer. I accept that most people are not prejudiced in that manner. I found it ironic though as it's usually the first characteristic a leave voter is labelled with when a person doesn't have a cogent argument of their own.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I voted Remain in order to avoid the chaos, not out of any love for EU , which has become an unaccountable behemoth. I was prepared to let it go on basis that at some point the EU will have to reform and saw no great advantage to UK in leaving, and there was more chance of it reforming with us in. The problem IMO is that EU has vastly overstretched itself, which is a great shame as the core principle of a single market is great, and worth paying for (and putting up with free movement of people).

So don't confuse a dislike of an institution with xenophobia; a mistake a lot of Remainers make. I love France, often think the best of UK and France would be THE best country in the world. And have travelled and respect greatly the rest of Europe. The problem is NOT the people, not the countries; it is the institution.

So why do I indulge in schadenfreude for the Italians and hope for a bit of chaos? Basically for two reasons:

1. The euro is not sustainable; it never has been and never will be unless there is fiscal union. No single currency in a large country or bloc (and note the word large before Leichtenstein, Luxembourg pre euro and others get thrown back) has ever worked without fiscal union IN THE LONG RUN. It cannot because there is no central control over tax and spending. So we get what we got: PIGS countries spending like crazy for a few years; Ireland just about recovering but with a lot of pain; Spain and Portugal teetering; and Greece will never recover without a creditor haircut put off by Merkel for political convenience. We also get Germany exporting like crazy because their currency is under valued, and their citizens are too sensible to go on a foreign spending spree. (A favourite anecdote is that Greece, despite its problems, is one of the few countries in Europe that spends >2% of its GDP on defence. Part of the reason is that Greece buys submarines - yes, submarines! - from Germany on a contract signed years ago...). Italy just about avoided the PIGS fiasco but faces an enormous pension problem demographically as it has a declining workforce and an increasing supply of folk eligible for pensions (a generic problem for much of advanced world but particularly acute in italy). I could go on about the 360bn euros that the Italian banking sector needs but leave it with Analysis in today's Times: "...Italy is heading for economic meltdown, and the day of reckoning - the overhaul or break-up of the euro - cannot be avoided for ever.". The euro was always an unannounced undemocratic political Trojan Horse: force political unity on those in it by virtue of economic necessity.The problem is that economic crisis has presaged any serious move to unity.

2. Contrary to the assumption that I might be one of those who didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result of Brexit, I am of the view that the easiest and best Brexit solution for UK is if the EU is forced to reform. And it is not going to reform if folk vote for establishment parties; all we will get is more arrogance, intransigence and pomposity from the odious Juncker et al. I would claim I am actually MORE behind the UK staying in the single market (for that read also custom union, free trade area etc explained in this article) than those who think somehow that everyone else is right and all we in UK need to do is think like them. That won't happen; I am not into rights and wrongs, just practicalities. The best, probably only, way for us to get a satisfactory solution to Brexit (unless you are a hard Brexiteer who naively thinks like Suzanne West on HIGNFY last week that Europe depends on us more than us on them) is for the pendulum to swing our way, and we need populism to drive it. It is an entirely Machiavellian conclusion, I admit, and not to everyone's liking, but we are where we are.

Brilliant and fair post. Thanks.

 

[Soulman]

I voted Remain in order to avoid the chaos, not out of any love for EU , which has become an unaccountable behemoth. I was prepared to let it go on basis that at some point the EU will have to reform and saw no great advantage to UK in leaving, and there was more chance of it reforming with us in. The problem IMO is that EU has vastly overstretched itself, which is a great shame as the core principle of a single market is great, and worth paying for (and putting up with free movement of people).

So don't confuse a dislike of an institution with xenophobia; a mistake a lot of Remainers make. I love France, often think the best of UK and France would be THE best country in the world. And have travelled and respect greatly the rest of Europe. The problem is NOT the people, not the countries; it is the institution.

So why do I indulge in schadenfreude for the Italians and hope for a bit of chaos? Basically for two reasons:

1. The euro is not sustainable; it never has been and never will be unless there is fiscal union. No single currency in a large country or bloc (and note the word large before Leichtenstein, Luxembourg pre euro and others get thrown back) has ever worked without fiscal union IN THE LONG RUN. It cannot because there is no central control over tax and spending. So we get what we got: PIGS countries spending like crazy for a few years; Ireland just about recovering but with a lot of pain; Spain and Portugal teetering; and Greece will never recover without a creditor haircut put off by Merkel for political convenience. We also get Germany exporting like crazy because their currency is under valued, and their citizens are too sensible to go on a foreign spending spree. (A favourite anecdote is that Greece, despite its problems, is one of the few countries in Europe that spends >2% of its GDP on defence. Part of the reason is that Greece buys submarines - yes, submarines! - from Germany on a contract signed years ago...). Italy just about avoided the PIGS fiasco but faces an enormous pension problem demographically as it has a declining workforce and an increasing supply of folk eligible for pensions (a generic problem for much of advanced world but particularly acute in italy). I could go on about the 360bn euros that the Italian banking sector needs but leave it with Analysis in today's Times: "...Italy is heading for economic meltdown, and the day of reckoning - the overhaul or break-up of the euro - cannot be avoided for ever.". The euro was always an unannounced undemocratic political Trojan Horse: force political unity on those in it by virtue of economic necessity.The problem is that economic crisis has presaged any serious move to unity.

2. Contrary to the assumption that I might be one of those who didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result of Brexit, I am of the view that the easiest and best Brexit solution for UK is if the EU is forced to reform. And it is not going to reform if folk vote for establishment parties; all we will get is more arrogance, intransigence and pomposity from the odious Juncker et al. I would claim I am actually MORE behind the UK staying in the single market (for that read also custom union, free trade area etc explained in this article) than those who think somehow that everyone else is right and all we in UK need to do is think like them. That won't happen; I am not into rights and wrongs, just practicalities. The best, probably only, way for us to get a satisfactory solution to Brexit (unless you are a hard Brexiteer who naively thinks like Suzanne West on HIGNFY last week that Europe depends on us more than us on them) is for the pendulum to swing our way, and we need populism to drive it. It is an entirely Machiavellian conclusion, I admit, and not to everyone's liking, but we are where we are.

Now that is a very good post.

 

[warmleyseagull]

For me, this is the greatest post ever written on the Brexit thread, and it's many predecessors. Top work.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Thanks - you can come again!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I voted Remain in order to avoid the chaos, not out of any love for EU , which has become an unaccountable behemoth. I was prepared to let it go on basis that at some point the EU will have to reform and saw no great advantage to UK in leaving, and there was more chance of it reforming with us in. The problem IMO is that EU has vastly overstretched itself, which is a great shame as the core principle of a single market is great, and worth paying for (and putting up with free movement of people).

So don't confuse a dislike of an institution with xenophobia; a mistake a lot of Remainers make. I love France, often think the best of UK and France would be THE best country in the world. And have travelled and respect greatly the rest of Europe. The problem is NOT the people, not the countries; it is the institution.

So why do I indulge in schadenfreude for the Italians and hope for a bit of chaos? Basically for two reasons:

1. The euro is not sustainable; it never has been and never will be unless there is fiscal union. No single currency in a large country or bloc (and note the word large before Leichtenstein, Luxembourg pre euro and others get thrown back) has ever worked without fiscal union IN THE LONG RUN. It cannot because there is no central control over tax and spending. So we get what we got: PIGS countries spending like crazy for a few years; Ireland just about recovering but with a lot of pain; Spain and Portugal teetering; and Greece will never recover without a creditor haircut put off by Merkel for political convenience. We also get Germany exporting like crazy because their currency is under valued, and their citizens are too sensible to go on a foreign spending spree. (A favourite anecdote is that Greece, despite its problems, is one of the few countries in Europe that spends >2% of its GDP on defence. Part of the reason is that Greece buys submarines - yes, submarines! - from Germany on a contract signed years ago...). Italy just about avoided the PIGS fiasco but faces an enormous pension problem demographically as it has a declining workforce and an increasing supply of folk eligible for pensions (a generic problem for much of advanced world but particularly acute in italy). I could go on about the 360bn euros that the Italian banking sector needs but leave it with Analysis in today's Times: "...Italy is heading for economic meltdown, and the day of reckoning - the overhaul or break-up of the euro - cannot be avoided for ever.". The euro was always an unannounced undemocratic political Trojan Horse: force political unity on those in it by virtue of economic necessity.The problem is that economic crisis has presaged any serious move to unity.

2. Contrary to the assumption that I might be one of those who didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result of Brexit, I am of the view that the easiest and best Brexit solution for UK is if the EU is forced to reform. And it is not going to reform if folk vote for establishment parties; all we will get is more arrogance, intransigence and pomposity from the odious Juncker et al. I would claim I am actually MORE behind the UK staying in the single market (for that read also custom union, free trade area etc explained in this article) than those who think somehow that everyone else is right and all we in UK need to do is think like them. That won't happen; I am not into rights and wrongs, just practicalities. The best, probably only, way for us to get a satisfactory solution to Brexit (unless you are a hard Brexiteer who naively thinks like Suzanne West on HIGNFY last week that Europe depends on us more than us on them) is for the pendulum to swing our way, and we need populism to drive it. It is an entirely Machiavellian conclusion, I admit, and not to everyone's liking, but we are where we are.

Thank you for a considered and thoughtful reply.

 

[Baldseagull]

Why would you need a visa? I don't need a visa to go to Switzerland. More panic/scaremongering on the basis of knowing very little.

On the basis of knowing very little, you should research maybe how it is you don't need a visa for Switzerland currently, and maybe pick another country we have visa free travel with, then check that they allow visa free travel for business too.

 

[Soulman]

Things are definitely changing.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Remember however that: immigrants pay in to the economy and help pay down the national debt. Immigrants are young and do not use many social services. Immigrants subsidise your services. Immigrants staff sectors of the UK economy that natives won't. Immigrants very often highly skilled. Immigrants are essential to the running of the NHS (nurses, doctors, cleaners etc).

so what's an acceptable figure for these immigrants in the country
regards
DR

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

so what's an acceptable figure for these immigrants in the country
regards
DR

The more the merrier.......by the sound of it...perhaps we won't have to work? they can pay our pension too..

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The more the merrier.......by the sound of it...perhaps we won't have to work? they can pay our pension too..

only because it doesn't affect their cosy little life ,some other thick northern racists can put up with it
regards
DR