Away supporters ?

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

So how did it work before? And why couldn't they have kept a similar system when you 'bought' the voucher along with your match ticket? Certainly the one-off vouchers could be printed (like they were before) alongside the one-off match tickets. If the VAT is a problem then treat them as two purchases - after all if you go shopping in Marks and Sparks you may well buy zero-rated children's clothes along with adult ones; the fact that in this instance your two separately-identifiable purchases are physically joined together by a perforation is neither here nor there.

A travel voucher for Withdean was included in the overall ticket price so the club would have been paying VAT on the tv element of that. Assuming the tv's were costed at £2/game that'd be £3,200 due to HMRC or £73,600 per 23 game season based on an average gate of 8k.
I expected the club to have sorted this out well before the move to the Amex, like the disabled parking saga it certainly shouldn't be seen as a stadium "snagging" issue imo. However, it is a part of the the overall transport management plan and with club having not finalised and submitted their proposals to the Council (cf criticism at the Racecourse P&R Planning Committee) then I'm not surprised at the last minute flapping about.

Away fans would then get their travel voucher with their ticket as before; currently a load of them are going to drive down and wing it, which rather goes against the 'sustainable transport' policy. On a personal note as there were no one-off Doncaster vouchers available when I bought my ticket I've either got to make a separate trip to the shop/stadium to buy them (assuming they're now available which anecdotal evidence says they are), or drive and park somewhere. I wonder if I can buy the vouchers at Mithras House? That's something I know you've asked before - did you ever get an answer? (Apologies if I've missed it in all the other myriad threads and announcements)

The Racecourse P&R PC meeting itself and the outcome (ie conditional temp approval only) showed that the club has some way to go on "sustainable transport" both in terms what it is and engaging fully with the council well before jumping in with an extention planning application. The CEO still contending that away fans will all be arriving by coach (thus being able to avoid them form any bus, train, P&R capacity calculations) did nothing to help the club's credibility in this area imo; two of the committee members are STHs so they'll be fully aware. I expect the application to get a very bumpy ride from all three parties represented on the Planning Committee.

 

[Brovion]

A travel voucher for Withdean was included in the overall ticket price so the club would have been paying VAT on the tv element of that. Assuming the tv's were costed at £2/game that'd be £3,200 due to HMRC or £73,600 per 23 game season based on an average gate of 8k.
I expected the club to have sorted this out well before the move to the Amex, like the disabled parking saga it certainly shouldn't be seen as a stadium "snagging" issue imo. However, it is a part of the the overall transport management plan and with club having not finalised and submitted their proposals to the Council (cf criticism at the Racecourse P&R Planning Committee) then I'm not surprised at the last minute flapping about.

The Racecourse P&R PC meeting itself and the outcome (ie conditional temp approval only) showed that the club has some way to go on "sustainable transport" both in terms what it is and engaging fully with the council well before jumping in with an extention planning application. The CEO still contending that away fans will all be arriving by coach (thus being able to avoid them form any bus, train, P&R capacity calculations) did nothing to help the club's credibility in this area imo; two of the committee members are STHs so they'll be fully aware. I expect the application to get a very bumpy ride from all three parties represented on the Planning Committee.

Hard to argue with any of that, can't believe they thought all away fans would come by coach, is that 'written down' anywhere or was it just a reported conversation? Also I would like to know the reasoning behind the scrapping of the 'travel voucher with ticket' system that was in operation at Withdean. As we've both pointed out it's hardly rocket science to work out the zero and standard-rated elements of the ticket price, especially as they've now put an actual price (£1.50) on the voucher.

As an aside like yourself I was actually planning to walk to the ground on Saturday from the Goldstone, but health problems will now prevent that. (Nothing on a par with yours I hasten to add, just a recurrence of back problems meaning I can't walk any distance).

 

[Storer 68]

Well done lads a bite at last , I got it all lol. The usual whippets, caps, told to fook off etc. and a load of up their own arses Brighton fans who think only of themselves and not the point I was making.
Well done some of you, you proved my point . Bring on Satdi oh and yep we can tell you exactly how to get to our stadium , where you can drink (everywhere), where you can park and btw we won't try 'dicking' you on tickets either!
Done like criticism do you in your bright new world ?

We have told you exactly how to get to the stadium -
We have told yu where to park - a long way from the ground
We don't know where you can drink - that's up to you. there are bars in the ground - outside its your choice
We haven't "dicked" you tickets - you have taken your full allocation

Now sit down in you splendidly padded comfy chair and feel the love and enjoy the game

 

[Storer 68]

Of course I didn't mean anything in a derogatory manner but loads of our supporters had to wait until this Tuesday to find out if they were indeed going to get a ticket for a game with a 400 mile round trip.
I don't give a flying shite who's bloody fault it was and I suspect it was '6 of one and half a doz. of t'other. Again it's the fans (of any club) incidentally who are left wondering whether to keep pre-booked hotels, coach seats etc. or indeed should they be lucky enough find a way of doing the trip at very short notice.

It seems to be the lot of all footy supporters to be fooked about by clubs, police stewards etc. everytime.

That's YOUR club's responsibility to sort out the arrangements for YOUR fans. We gave Donny their full allocation of tickets. DRFC did not buy the full alocation at once on the very sound basis that its a long trip in the school summer holidays and the first game of the season so who knows how many will be travelling. We held some back to that DRFC could assess the demand and then offer some more if required, which was the case. i don't thnk its our fault at all.

 

[Diar]

Its a 1 off day for you. You will be relegated this season so you wont have to worry about coming back again

Oh I'm going to enjoy this Tezza Baby!

 

[Diar]

Good work, Bozza.

I detect a genuine wish among Albion fans to get our opponents conveniently into the stadium, so that we can all enjoy a great atmosphere. We like a bit of banter on NSC, but I'd feel a bit more comfortable if we could get on to the front foot. As things are at the moment, my sympathies are entirely with the original poster.

I know how you must feel, M'lud. I was disappointed at any criticism of the KM by opponents, cos I was really proud of it and thought it made us into a higher league club for the first time in my life.
Dont worry about it... we're a hardy lot us Rovers, and a few problems wont mean we wont enjoy the day. I just think back to standing in the hailstones at Southport... what's a few inconveniences to us? Anybody would think we were prawn sarnie munching Mancunian plastics!
As I say, be prepared for sarchasm and belittling from away fans during the season... some people think that life would be worthless without it.

 

[Diar]

Football is too bloody organized these days
More fun when you don't know what is gonna happen
The joys of kipping overnight in freezing cold train stations, them were the days

Freezing cold railway stations... LUXURY. We had to sleep in cardboard boxes on top of a manure heap, for warmth!

 

[Diar]

Good point trueblue - I was wondering just how many of our guests this season will be aware of just how many hoops the Club has had to jump through to to get the new stadium - and now the arrangements to make it work. I guess that Donny might be a bit more aware than many because of their newish stadium but may not understand some of the detail about limitations and constraints on getting punters to/from the ground.

Some seem to overlook that our City is hemmed into a narrow strip between the sea (effectively losing 180 degrees of potential building land) and the South Downs (now a national park etc) that makes finding space for a stadium a challenge, let alone where there is reasonable access. I wouldn't mind betting that Donny had the choice of some brown field sites for their new stadium. Shoreham Harbour and Brighton station were suggested as potential sites for us which were impractical, otherwise it was all green belt including Falmer and the associated implications.

Our site at Falmer was far from ideal and planning permission necessitated major landscaping and innovative engineering solutions to squeeze the stadium into the hillside below Village Way in order to reduce its impact into the environment. Yes we have a railway station and the A27/A23 corridor on the doorstep of The Amex which are big advantages but dont have significant space to accommodate several thousand cars hence the need to have effective park and ride systems - and to effectively communicate this to away fans. At least we have good experience of this from Withdean albeit on a smaller scale. It is about making the site at Falmer work - and so far it is remarkable that there have been so few gremlins.

From my point of view (especially as an exile having to travel from outside Sussex) the travel / parking arrangements might be a tad inconvenient for some but I feel that all of these factors are what makes The Amex different from most new stadia and therefore somewhat unique - and hurrah for that!

The KM was held up by the discovery of Great Crested Newt breeding grounds on the site. I kid you not... protected species.
They had to round up the little blighters and relocate them.
Mind you, the area around the stadium has a wildlife sanctuary for loads of wildfowl and stuff. The Newts would be OK, in case any of you were worried!

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

Hard to argue with any of that, can't believe they thought all away fans would come by coach, is that 'written down' anywhere or was it just a reported conversation? Also I would like to know the reasoning behind the scrapping of the 'travel voucher with ticket' system that was in operation at Withdean. As we've both pointed out it's hardly rocket science to work out the zero and standard-rated elements of the ticket price, especially as they've now put an actual price (£1.50) on the voucher.

It was in the initial planning application for the stadium and seems to have been retained throughout. I think it also appears in the Council Officers briefing notes to the Planning Commitee for the Racecourse P&R Meeting on June 29; I'll try look it out later today and post a link for you.

As an aside like yourself I was actually planning to walk to the ground on Saturday from the Goldstone, but health problems will now prevent that. (Nothing on a par with yours I hasten to add, just a recurrence of back problems meaning I can't walk any distance).

Definitely a no go for me too; in fact, like the Spurs game, I may not be well/fit enough to walk from the Univ Car park on Saturday. Buy a "normal" C/P space at the univ was the only option given to me (not that paying or being allocated a "blue badge" space was ever an issue - I never asked for the latter), it is the distance involved that's the problem. Still, I think I have a case under the Disability and Equality Act if the "disabled access" discussions soon to be held with the club don't lead to a satisfactory outcome.

 

[Storer 68]

The KM was held up by the discovery of Great Crested Newt breeding grounds on the site. I kid you not... protected species.
They had to round up the little blighters and relocate them.
Mind you, the area around the stadium has a wildlife sanctuary for loads of wildfowl and stuff. The Newts would be OK, in case any of you were worried!

we had the same issue with badgers

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

we had the same issue with badgers

And who could forget the bats?

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

It was in the initial planning application for the stadium and seems to have been retained throughout. I think it also appears in the Council Officers briefing notes to the Planning Commitee for the Racecourse P&R Meeting on June 29; I'll try look it out later today and post a link for you.

There you go, some lunchtime reading:

http://present.brighton-hove.gov.uk/mgConvert2Pdf.aspx?ID=10545&T=9

Table at the top of page 21 of the attachment (P17 of the Plans list) for the 29/06/11 Planning Committee meeting.
If you read on then there's interesting comments about the Amex STH transport survey that the club carried out in 1Q11; I find the entire document a pretty useful source of info, particularly with the Club adopting a policy of limited/no release of such. At the meeting, one of the Councillors specifically queried the away fans travel arrangements (may have been Ian Davey from the Greens); Perry waffled a fair bit about away fans being well organised and making arrangements well in advance, blah, blah, blah............. and basically got away without really answering the question - at that point it was clear to me that the 2,250 away fans by coach proposal was total bollocks.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Still, I think I have a case under the Disability and Equality Act if the "disabled access" discussions soon to be held with the club don't lead to a satisfactory outcome.

Are you planning to take the club to court ?

 

[Brovion]

It was in the initial planning application for the stadium and seems to have been retained throughout. I think it also appears in the Council Officers briefing notes to the Planning Commitee for the Racecourse P&R Meeting on June 29; I'll try look it out later today and post a link for you.

There you go, some lunchtime reading:

http://present.brighton-hove.gov.uk/mgConvert2Pdf.aspx?ID=10545&T=9

Table at the top of page 21 of the attachment (P17 of the Plans list) for the 29/06/11 Planning Committee meeting.
If you read on then there's interesting comments about the Amex STH transport survey that the club carried out in 1Q11; I find the entire document a pretty useful source of info, particularly with the Club adopting a policy of limited/no release of such. At the meeting, one of the Councillors specifically queried the away fans travel arrangements (may have been Ian Davey from the Greens); Perry waffled a fair bit about away fans being well organised and making arrangements well in advance, blah, blah, blah............. and basically got away without really answering the question - at that point it was clear to me that the 2,250 away fans by coach proposal was total bollocks.

Thanks for that, my heart sank when I saw there were 230 pages, but only about 27 dealt with the Albion! Yeah, I've seen the table now, 2250 (10% of the capacity) away fans all arriving by coach, so by extension none are/were expected to use the train or the P&R. Hmmm. I'm surprised at the calculations to say the least.

 

[Storer 68]

I suspect, and have no knowledge or proof, that it was a convenient assumption that every away fan would arrive by coach as this would also mean that the same arrangements and assumptions for them could also be applied for those arriving by alternative means ie train and car. Clearly the private car is the most difficult and inefficient mode for the club to accomodate and make allowance for , but it was ever thus - it was at the Goldstone, at Priestfield, at Withdean and now at Falmer.

and the plan gives permission for 700 cars! - so an average of three people per car gives 2100 away fans arriving by car - that's pretty much all the tickets that away clubs can have . Evidence from Withdean has shown that most home supporters will make use of one of the transport systems put in place by the club to get to the stadium without resorting to cars

Use of land for Park and Ride
facilities for up to 700 cars, in
conjunction with outdoor events (no
more than 50 per year) at the
American Express Community
Stadium, Falmer.

 

[SeagullinExile]

I fully agree. We should be more respectful to away fans - even if they are flat cap wearing, pigeon breeding, whippet owning, gravy drinking northern monkeys!

Was is Cas Pennent that once said "You can always tell a northerner...they dress the same, but they just look scruffy!"?

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

Are you planning to take the club to court ?

A tad premature for this atm, particularly with all the conciliatory efforts being made by Portlock, HT, LB and others to resolve what is a really bad effort by the club both in terms of provision and communication.
However, it does seem to me that to date the club has only addressed, however poorly, the needs of disabled attendees with permanent mobility difficulties; and almost inevitably the public "debate" has been focused "Blue Badge" parking spaces. The D&E Act is about much more than this, it's about equality of access for all disabled people - for example Cancer, HIV and MS patients are disabled and may need support to be able to access to the stadium. It may well not be the same as someone in a wheel chair but I'm not sure the club understands this or, if the results of my own attempts to engage in discussion with them via the Customer Services Portals is anything to go by, is particularly bothered tbh.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

I suspect, and have no knowledge or proof, that it was a convenient assumption that every away fan would arrive by coach as this would also mean that the same arrangements and assumptions for them could also be applied for those arriving by alternative means ie train and car. Clearly the private car is the most difficult and inefficient mode for the club to accomodate and make allowance for , but it was ever thus - it was at the Goldstone, at Priestfield, at Withdean and now at Falmer.

and the plan gives permission for 700 cars! - so an average of three people per car gives 2100 away fans arriving by car - that's pretty much all the tickets that away clubs can have . Evidence from Withdean has shown that most home supporters will make use of one of the transport systems put in place by the club to get to the stadium without resorting to cars

Use of land for Park and Ride
facilities for up to 700 cars, in
conjunction with outdoor events (no
more than 50 per year) at the
American Express Community
Stadium, Falmer.

Eh? The Racecourse P&R approval just takes the total number of P&R and stadium parking spaces available to that needed to cover the number of home fans who indicated (in the ST survey) that they would use P&R as the preferred means of transport to the Amex - for some bizarre reason, travel by car and parking at the stadium was omitted from the survey. To get the P&R survey figures to balance the Council has had to sum the P&R and nearsite parking spaces (2,004) using the club's average occupancy figure of 2.6/car. There is no P&R provision for away supporters either here or in the information provided to the council prior to the Racecourse Planning Committee meeting on June 29, and it now appears (see club response to NSC Amex travel questions) that 600 or so of the 2,004 nearsite parking spaces are now to be used by staff etc.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Of course I didn't mean anything in a derogatory manner but loads of our supporters had to wait until this Tuesday to find out if they were indeed going to get a ticket for a game with a 400 mile round trip.

Loads of us had to wait until 4 hours before kick-off to find if postie was going to deliver us smartcards (by second class post) that would let us into the opening game at the stadium. OK, not quite the same thing. But pretty close. At least you got a few days notice.

 

[Ian from Doncaster]

Eh? The Racecourse P&R approval just takes the total number of P&R and stadium parking spaces available to that needed to cover the number of home fans who indicated (in the ST survey) that they would use P&R as the preferred means of transport to the Amex - for some bizarre reason, travel by car and parking at the stadium was omitted from the survey. To get the P&R survey figures to balance the Council has had to sum the P&R and nearsite parking spaces (2,004) using the club's average occupancy figure of 2.6/car. There is no P&R provision for away supporters either here or in the information provided to the council prior to the Racecourse Planning Committee meeting on June 29, and it now appears (see club response to NSC Amex travel questions) that 600 or so of the 2,004 nearsite parking spaces are now to be used by staff etc.

Unbelievable!

We do appreciate all other points raised, and especially the struggle to get your stadium built...