[Politics] Australian Election

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Isnt that a bit pointless? Why should you have to turn up somewhere to fill in the "I dont give a shit / leave me alone" option rather than just not turn up at all?

If voter turnout is low then the issues making it the case should be adressed rather than trying to change it by force.

Voting should be online. For people not online and unable to physically attend somewhere to vote, they could be visited by someone with a smart phone so they can vote. All ballots at work are online and doable using a phone. Even I can do it, and I'm a silly old ****. In a few years time there will be nobody disenfranchised, except those determined to hide. And they will receive . . . . a fine.

Unfortunately in our present system, winning parties love a low turnout because the low turnout clearly helped them win, so issues making a low turnout the case will never be addressed.

And if you give people the freedom to disengage then about a third will disengage.

I have been sat in an external examiner's meeting this afternoon (online). In the three universities I have dealings with currently, all have experienced a marks 'tail' with maybe a third of students getting marks well below what was expected. We gave them the option to do most of their lectures online this year (which amounts to an option to disengage completely if they so wished) and the law of thirds shows us this probably resulted in them doing badly.

I like a bit of coercion, but you don't. So it goes.

 

[Audax]

Voting should not be mandatory. People who dont give a shit should be allowed not to give a shit.

Common misconception about the Australian law. There is no mandatory voting. It is only mandatory to show up and get your name ticked off. Once you've done that, and been handed your voting slip, you can simply drop it in the box unmarked and walk out.

Edit: or equivalent if not voting in person. Register for postal vote, then send it back blank or defaced. You've still complied with the law.

 

[highflyer]

Voting should not be mandatory. People who dont give a shit should be allowed not to give a shit.

If we pretend that democracy is working, then it should be in everyones interest if those who doesnt care (and also might not know anything) stay out of it if they want to.

I agree, but I also think that if you didn't vote then you should be legally obliged to shut the f*ck up when the government doesn't behave the way you want

 

[Audax]

Isnt that a bit pointless? Why should you have to turn up somewhere to fill in the "I dont give a shit / leave me alone" option rather than just not turn up at all?

If voter turnout is low then the issues making it the case should be adressed rather than trying to change it by force.

Because the reality is that the majority do end up contributing a vote, which suggests that having been told they must vote they are actually able to give enough of a shit to mark a ballot paper correctly - especially given it's a bit more complicated in Australia than here in the UK. The rate of "spoiled" ballots in Australia is around 5%. Compare that to the huge numbers who simply don't vote at all in the UK.

But I probably see it differently: I grew up in Australia, so I always knew that once I turned 18 I had to go vote. I knew that, I understood that, and I was happy with it.

There's a few things I think would improve democracy in the UK:

1. "Mandatory" voting - or, rather, as per the Australian system - mandatory to show up, whether you actually vote or not being irrelevant.

2. Get rid of FPTP. Not sure what system would be better for the UK, but FPTP is *not* democracy except in a very loose sense. It's wrong that someone can be "elected" to hold a seat off the back of 40% (or less) of the vote. Hate to use it as an example, but Hartlepool is a prime example. At the 2019 GE it was held by Labour with 37.7%. But the "right wing" vote was higher than the Labour vote (Tory 28.9, Brexit 25.8) - in Australia, the Tories would have won that seat in 2019 (and, as much as it pains me to say it, rightly so as a more democratic result!). Fast forward to the by election, which the Tories won - because the right wing vote was no longer split between Tory and Brexit. I was more surprised that political pundits here in the UK treated it as some sort of shock result. It was so blatantly predictable.

3. Abolish the unelected House of Lords and replace it with a proportional representation elected house. And while you're at it, give it some real powers to curtail the excesses of the government.

4. Truly independent integrity enforcement.

5. Political advertisements / broadcasts held to a set of standards that ensure accuracy etc. If a lipstick company must show proof of their claims about their product, then so should political parties.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Because the reality is that the majority do end up contributing a vote, which suggests that having been told they must vote they are actually able to give enough of a shit to mark a ballot paper correctly - especially given it's a bit more complicated in Australia than here in the UK. The rate of "spoiled" ballots in Australia is around 5%. Compare that to the huge numbers who simply don't vote at all in the UK.

But I probably see it differently: I grew up in Australia, so I always knew that once I turned 18 I had to go vote. I knew that, I understood that, and I was happy with it.

There's a few things I think would improve democracy in the UK:

1. "Mandatory" voting - or, rather, as per the Australian system - mandatory to show up, whether you actually vote or not being irrelevant.

2. Get rid of FPTP. Not sure what system would be better for the UK, but FPTP is *not* democracy except in a very loose sense. It's wrong that someone can be "elected" to hold a seat off the back of 40% (or less) of the vote. Hate to use it as an example, but Hartlepool is a prime example. At the 2019 GE it was held by Labour with 37.7%. But the "right wing" vote was higher than the Labour vote (Tory 28.9, Brexit 25.8) - in Australia, the Tories would have won that seat in 2019 (and, as much as it pains me to say it, rightly so as a more democratic result!). Fast forward to the by election, which the Tories won - because the right wing vote was no longer split between Tory and Brexit. I was more surprised that political pundits here in the UK treated it as some sort of shock result. It was so blatantly predictable.

3. Abolish the unelected House of Lords and replace it with a proportional representation elected house. And while you're at it, give it some real powers to curtail the excesses of the government.

4. Truly independent integrity enforcement.

5. Political advertisements / broadcasts held to a set of standards that ensure accuracy etc. If a lipstick company must show proof of their claims about their product, then so should political parties.

The irony of the clowns waffling on about the environment yet they are happy to waste huge amounts of resources in having to produce such a large volume of voting cards to prop up their stupid system.


Imagine the money and wastage that could be saved if people were given the option to either turn up and vote or not.

Turning up to vote legitimises these utter waste of space ****ers because they can always says 99.9% of people turned up to vote.


That's not democracy, that's authoritarian.

 

[BadFish]

With the greens good showing also. It bodes well that climate change is front and centre on the agenda.

Although having just installed solar I feel a better deal in on the horizon.

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[clapham_gull]

Common misconception about the Australian law. There is no mandatory voting. It is only mandatory to show up and get your name ticked off. Once you've done that, and been handed your voting slip, you can simply drop it in the box unmarked and walk out.

Edit: or equivalent if not voting in person. Register for postal vote, then send it back blank or defaced. You've still complied with the law.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did read somewhere that although it is compulsory to "turn up" (and not actually vote) in Australia that relies on accurate voter registration.

Since many are unregistered in Australia, the percentage of people not turning up (in addition to those who do but express no preference) isn't that different from other countries who don't apply such a law.

Thank you for posting the actual legal requirement. I used to have "arguments" with Australians at work about it who genuinely believed unless you put a cross against a candidate you could be prosecuted.

 

[clapham_gull]

I'd personally like the see some form of second preference over here, not pure PR.

If it's good enough for the Mayoral Elections it's good enough for the General Election.

FPTP isn't working. It's delivered minority / coalition Governments in the last few years. the very thing it isn't supposed to. It's recently allowed clever strategists to "shore up" their core voters with extreme politics on both sides.

A secondary vote would make the parties think beyond their core vote. I read some research a while back that if applied retrospectively, it would have led to larger majorities alongside a larger popular vote.

 

[Tillo]

We don’t show ID at the polling stations in Australia, your name is just crossed off a list though you do need to enrol online before hand with a drivers licence or passport as ID or someone to vouch for you if you have neither so no compulsory ID cards required

 

[Seagull27]

Because the reality is that the majority do end up contributing a vote, which suggests that having been told they must vote they are actually able to give enough of a shit to mark a ballot paper correctly - especially given it's a bit more complicated in Australia than here in the UK. The rate of "spoiled" ballots in Australia is around 5%. Compare that to the huge numbers who simply don't vote at all in the UK.

But I probably see it differently: I grew up in Australia, so I always knew that once I turned 18 I had to go vote. I knew that, I understood that, and I was happy with it.

There's a few things I think would improve democracy in the UK:

1. "Mandatory" voting - or, rather, as per the Australian system - mandatory to show up, whether you actually vote or not being irrelevant.

2. Get rid of FPTP. Not sure what system would be better for the UK, but FPTP is *not* democracy except in a very loose sense. It's wrong that someone can be "elected" to hold a seat off the back of 40% (or less) of the vote. Hate to use it as an example, but Hartlepool is a prime example. At the 2019 GE it was held by Labour with 37.7%. But the "right wing" vote was higher than the Labour vote (Tory 28.9, Brexit 25.8) - in Australia, the Tories would have won that seat in 2019 (and, as much as it pains me to say it, rightly so as a more democratic result!). Fast forward to the by election, which the Tories won - because the right wing vote was no longer split between Tory and Brexit. I was more surprised that political pundits here in the UK treated it as some sort of shock result. It was so blatantly predictable.

3. Abolish the unelected House of Lords and replace it with a proportional representation elected house. And while you're at it, give it some real powers to curtail the excesses of the government.

4. Truly independent integrity enforcement.

5. Political advertisements / broadcasts held to a set of standards that ensure accuracy etc. If a lipstick company must show proof of their claims about their product, then so should political parties.

Not sure mandatory voting is such a good idea. If people aren't engaged enough to bother to vote, they won't have done much research on who they should support and what the policies are. They probably don't have much preference either way and would likely be swayed by whatever snippets they have heard, probably from sensationalist headlines from the media.

I don't think the result of an election should be decided by people who largely don't care about the outcome.

 

[Recidivist]

Because the reality is that the majority do end up contributing a vote, which suggests that having been told they must vote they are actually able to give enough of a shit to mark a ballot paper correctly - especially given it's a bit more complicated in Australia than here in the UK. The rate of "spoiled" ballots in Australia is around 5%. Compare that to the huge numbers who simply don't vote at all in the UK.

But I probably see it differently: I grew up in Australia, so I always knew that once I turned 18 I had to go vote. I knew that, I understood that, and I was happy with it.

There's a few things I think would improve democracy in the UK:

1. "Mandatory" voting - or, rather, as per the Australian system - mandatory to show up, whether you actually vote or not being irrelevant.

2. Get rid of FPTP. Not sure what system would be better for the UK, but FPTP is *not* democracy except in a very loose sense. It's wrong that someone can be "elected" to hold a seat off the back of 40% (or less) of the vote. Hate to use it as an example, but Hartlepool is a prime example. At the 2019 GE it was held by Labour with 37.7%. But the "right wing" vote was higher than the Labour vote (Tory 28.9, Brexit 25.8) - in Australia, the Tories would have won that seat in 2019 (and, as much as it pains me to say it, rightly so as a more democratic result!). Fast forward to the by election, which the Tories won - because the right wing vote was no longer split between Tory and Brexit. I was more surprised that political pundits here in the UK treated it as some sort of shock result. It was so blatantly predictable.

3. Abolish the unelected House of Lords and replace it with a proportional representation elected house. And while you're at it, give it some real powers to curtail the excesses of the government.

4. Truly independent integrity enforcement.

5. Political advertisements / broadcasts held to a set of standards that ensure accuracy etc. If a lipstick company must show proof of their claims about their product, then so should political parties.

All excellent ideas. Always thought it was a massive own goal when a form of proportional representation was voted down by the electorate.

It might not have been the perfect answer (but then what is?) but it would have made parties think a lot harder about their policies and designed them to look further than their natural base.

To these ideas, I would add the abolition of the monarchy, a proper written constitution to avoid attempts by the executive to sidestep parliament (e. g. attempted proroguing in 2019) and moving Parliament to the Midlands/North.

The latter would do far more for the levelling-up agenda than half-baked attempts to shovel some money towards former red-wall seats. If the government and civil servants had to see and deal personally with problems of low investment in regions other than the South East on a daily basis, I’d bet they get fixed pdq!

Last, but not least, political parties funded by the public purse (difficult to do, I appreciate) to avoid all parties being perpetually beholden to special interest groups.


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[Tyrone Biggums]

Not sure mandatory voting is such a good idea. If people aren't engaged enough to bother to vote, they won't have done much research on who they should support and what the policies are. They probably don't have much preference either way and would likely be swayed by whatever snippets they have heard, probably from sensationalist headlines from the media.

I don't think the result of an election should be decided by people who largely don't care about the outcome.

The parties love mandatory voting because the parties get paid for votes received.

You are correct that great swathes of people don't give a rats so put next to no effort into candidates and what they actually think.

So even a vote from someone who really doesn't care puts money in the pockets of the slimy political parties and their corrupt stooges.

They get $2.91 per first preference vote. There's nearly 18 million people registered to vote. That's why they prop up this shit system.

 

[BadFish]

People should be either allowed to vote in elections or vote on reality TV. Take your pick folks.

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[Westdene Seagull]

Mandatory voting is an interesting idea, I think I would be for it if it was brought in here.

Voting should absolutely be mandatory, with a small number of agreed exceptions.

Absolutely a BIG NO from me. Firstly MPs have the right to abstain in parliament votes so why should the electorate not have the same right. Equally I don't agree with Police Crime Commissioners being voted on as it politicises the police - so I don't vote in those elections ( although I vote in all others ) - I'd be mighty pissed off if I had to vote in an election I didn't agree with.

I might just stretch to agreeing with compulsory voting if there was a 'None of the Above' option but even then I'd be very uncomfortable forcing people to do something they don't wish to do.

 

[nicko31]

ID Cards (Supplied Free of Charge) should be mandatory - we are I believe the only country in Europe that doesn't have one. What's the issue?

Surely nothing to hide, nothing to fear?

I see no issue with it

But you will now need photo ID to vote in the UK. About 2m have no passport / driving licence

Yes, there will be a way to get photo, but many just won't bother.

We now have voter suppression plus the government now controls the electoral commission.

We really are asleep what they're doing to us....

 

[nicko31]

With the greens good showing also. It bodes well that climate change is front and centre on the agenda.

Although having just installed solar I feel a better deal in on the horizon.

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Looks like the Greens and the Teal will hold balance of power

Well done Australia, you've had clowns like Abbott and Morrison. Hopefully you've seen the light

 

[Audax]

The irony of the clowns waffling on about the environment yet they are happy to waste huge amounts of resources in having to produce such a large volume of voting cards to prop up their stupid system.


Imagine the money and wastage that could be saved if people were given the option to either turn up and vote or not.

You've not thought that through. There's more wastage here in the UK, because they still have to produce enough voting cards etc just in case everyone comes to vote. And yet so many don't, so the cards don't get used.

I'll say it again: having grown up and spent the first 10 years of my voting life in Australia, it never felt anything like authoritarian. It felt more like I was being given a chance to make my vote count (more so than here thanks to Australia's preferential lower house and proportional upper house). Australian's, in the main, accept the fact that turning up to vote is mandatory. Just have to look at the phenomenon that is the "democracy sausage" to see that Aussies treat election day quite differently.

 

[Audax]

Because the reality is that the majority do end up contributing a vote, which suggests that having been told they must vote they are actually able to give enough of a shit to mark a ballot paper correctly - especially given it's a bit more complicated in Australia than here in the UK. The rate of "spoiled" ballots in Australia is around 5%. Compare that to the huge numbers who simply don't vote at all in the UK.

But I probably see it differently: I grew up in Australia, so I always knew that once I turned 18 I had to go vote. I knew that, I understood that, and I was happy with it.

There's a few things I think would improve democracy in the UK:

1. "Mandatory" voting - or, rather, as per the Australian system - mandatory to show up, whether you actually vote or not being irrelevant.

2. Get rid of FPTP. Not sure what system would be better for the UK, but FPTP is *not* democracy except in a very loose sense. It's wrong that someone can be "elected" to hold a seat off the back of 40% (or less) of the vote. Hate to use it as an example, but Hartlepool is a prime example. At the 2019 GE it was held by Labour with 37.7%. But the "right wing" vote was higher than the Labour vote (Tory 28.9, Brexit 25.8) - in Australia, the Tories would have won that seat in 2019 (and, as much as it pains me to say it, rightly so as a more democratic result!). Fast forward to the by election, which the Tories won - because the right wing vote was no longer split between Tory and Brexit. I was more surprised that political pundits here in the UK treated it as some sort of shock result. It was so blatantly predictable.

3. Abolish the unelected House of Lords and replace it with a proportional representation elected house. And while you're at it, give it some real powers to curtail the excesses of the government.

4. Truly independent integrity enforcement.

5. Political advertisements / broadcasts held to a set of standards that ensure accuracy etc. If a lipstick company must show proof of their claims about their product, then so should political parties.

I forgot to add another point to this list of improvements for the UK:

6. Election day should be on a Saturday. Suspect you'd get better turn out even if it remained voluntary.

 

[Audax]

Not sure mandatory voting is such a good idea. If people aren't engaged enough to bother to vote, they won't have done much research on who they should support and what the policies are. They probably don't have much preference either way and would likely be swayed by whatever snippets they have heard, probably from sensationalist headlines from the media.

I don't think the result of an election should be decided by people who largely don't care about the outcome.

To be perfectly honest, I think you have the same problem here. The numbers of genuinely engaged voters is far smaller than the numbers who actually vote. It'd be interesting for someone to do a study on it - I do wonder if mandatory voting helps to increase the % of those who have at least a modicum of understanding of what they are voting for (because they must vote, it increases the likelihood of doing at least a minimum of research?)

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You've not thought that through. There's more wastage here in the UK, because they still have to produce enough voting cards etc just in case everyone comes to vote. And yet so many don't, so the cards don't get used.

I'll say it again: having grown up and spent the first 10 years of my voting life in Australia, it never felt anything like authoritarian. It felt more like I was being given a chance to make my vote count (more so than here thanks to Australia's preferential lower house and proportional upper house). Australian's, in the main, accept the fact that turning up to vote is mandatory. Just have to look at the phenomenon that is the "democracy sausage" to see that Aussies treat election day quite differently.

I have thought it through.

Very easy for people to jump online and click a button that says I will not be voting and bingo, your name isn't on the list of people registered to vote for the election.

I'm Australian born and bred, I kinda know how many of us think.

I also live in a safe Labor seat with an utter shit stain of a politician representing it who through back stabbing and brown nosing is somehow the deputy PM of the nation.

Even though his party have held he seat for 40 years at state and federal levels they've let the poorest area of the city go to absolute shit and done nothing for anyone in the seat.

If Australian's didn't have to turn up millions wouldn't.

If it's not authoritarian then why was I fined for not voting in an election? Seems rather Big Brother bullshit to me.