Ashley Barnes isn't nearly good enough for us.

[theonesmith]

Stats are For the Stat lovers who think stats are the ONLY way to judge a player. Recent games since November where AShley Barnes has started

WIN at Exeter on November 2nd
DRAW to Woking
LOST to Hartlepool
DRAW to Woking
DRAW to Bristol Rovers
DRAW to Southampton
DRAW to FC United
WIN over 10 men Pomey
LOST to Bournemouth

Barnes Sub or not in squad

WIN over Exeter
WIN over FC United
LOST to Huddersfield (our total boogey team)
DRAW (Many treated like a WIN) to Charlton
WIN over Leyton Orient
WIN over Peterborough


Wins since November with Barnes starting 22.22%

Wins since November with Barnes not starting 66.66%

OPINION WOULD BE, if we drew with Charlton playing most of the game with 10 men, we would have bet them with 11. If we beat Pomey when they had 10 men for most of the game we may have drew, so if these happened and in my opinion MAy have, then

Barnes Starting drops to a 11% win rate
when Barnes doesnt start we have a win rate 83.3% since November.

But thats just an opinion. The real stats which everyone loves to use as there only argument are above.

Thank you for quoting me. Some people like using stats, others prefer qualitative evidence- as I pointed out in the quoted post. Thank you for backing up your argument, gives you more credence..

Could you now address the other points raised in my post? As these are my main queries with your argument. Many thanks

 

[Gerbil]

And that, Mr Burns, is what is wrong with English football. If it were another type of post/poster making it, those statements would gain the response of "you fuckwit".

But you've not raised an issue with Barnes but English football, you're putting a lump ahead of technical skill. Murry is a better player than Barnes. Murray however, is not 19 like Barnes. Barnes will learn more and more technical skill. That is what we should teach children in football, not that if you aren't good in the air, you're not getting in to our game because you could have all teh talent in the world technically, in line with Messi. But if you "aint a lad yer f***ed".

A well constructed case of reasons why English football is not the best in the world. We value strenght and power rather than technical skill and finesse.

He's 21
Wood is 19

 

[Acker79]

Articulate though this hatchet-job is on Barnes...

So essentially, you're saying take away all the goals Barnes has scored this season and he'd be shit ?

Good argument.

While I agree that Barnes was poor yesterday, and is nowhere near as complete a striker as Murray, your argument has some serious flaws...

Barnes has 100% penalty shots which none of the other goal scorers can boast.

This is his first proper full season as a regular striker in this division...

Whilst I don't think Barnes leads the line very well, I think you are well out of order with snide comments such as the above.

Murray is clearly our best striker as he has a physical presence, brings others into the game and possesses an excellent first touch.

Barnes and Wood are two very different types of player to accompany Murray...

The abuse of Barnes is pathetic. You know there are, actually, different types of striker...

Ignore the stats? No, because they tell the whole story, in black and white, beyond prejudice...

Thanks, but I think I'll trust the opinion of Gustavo Augusto Poyet Dominquez...

I find it strange to label Murray a super-strongman when he pretty much dives whenever he has the chance....

All of these^^ I'm sorry to people who are annoyed by the lack of originality with 'this', but the points I would make are above.

I have not read through thread and dont care to. Ashley Barnes has 10/11 goals so far this season?.Should be more like 20, he needs 6 chances to score 1. He is not good enough, end of!!!!..I have never rated him and i dont think i ever will. He certainly is not good enough for championship. Average div 1 player at best, but not good enough for us moving forward. Murray is twice the player Barnes is, all over the park.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Back before the world cup ssn showed the stats for rooney, messi and ronaldo. Rooney scored 18% of his shots. Meaning he needed over 5 shots to score one, and people expect Barnes to be better than that?

For the Stat lovers who think stats are the ONLY way to judge a player.
...
As I said. You can say anything with poxy stats

1) Who said they wanted to only use stats to judge him? No one, they just want it to be part of the argument.
2) Stats can be used to show support for many things, but only for things they can actually support. For you to find stats to make Barnes look bad you have ignored 3 months of the so far 5 we've played this season, the two you focus on were the ones in which the entire team was underperforming and several matches were postponed, in such an obvious attempt to spin the stats. When you are using stats to prove something they don't naturally support, it becomes quite obvious that you're twisting them, as in this case.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Sadly for them but no spot for Holroyd or Hart.

At least we agree on something

 

[Mr Burns]

Okay, so in the last month while the whole team has been poor we've lost more games that he's been in.

Whether it is the common factor between those games or not is not yet established though.

What is established, well and truely, is that he is our second top goal scorer and set for his and gus's target of 15 goals this year, and beyond.

I completey agree he is out second top scorer. Thats a fact. What I am saying is doesn't mean hes brilliant. If he starts Tuesday, and I seriously doubt he will. Watch him.

Watch Murray, watch Noone watch Wood read the game. Watch how when the ball is in the air or along the ground coming towards them, they set themselves, they receive the ball in there head, before its got to them. When it arrives, they are backing into a defender holding it up, flicking it around a defender, basicallly ready to do something with the ball.

Then watch Barnes, he'll react after the balls got to him, which means he's normally out of position. It means he adjusting himself to get to the ball, and nine times out of ten, the ball coming back at us, whereas the others mentioned are using to the ball to our attacking advantage, having already set themselves. How many times this season has the ball been played to Barnes who then reacts as its gone by him, not reacting to why the ball is going to go. He doesn't read the game. I put it down to bottle, and that it was easier for him to stay out of the way, but after discussing this thread on the phone with an ex pro player, who seems to think its nothing to do with bottle its purely down to he can't read the game as he should.

Dont take my word for it, watch Barnes closely and compare him to the others mentioned. He's a class and more below Murray, Wood, Noone, Sandaza, and as much as it pains me Hart, who is completely past it himself in my opinion. Just watch him, and don't get blinded by the facts if he scores a penalty or get a tap in of the back of someones hard work. Watch his moment, his reading of the game, and then come back here and tell me hes good enough to play in a League one side at the top of the league. If Murray goes or sits on the bench, and we have to relay on Barnes for the rest of hte season, we're in trouble.

 

[Mr Burns]

Also had a lot more experience.

If Barnes had scored every chance he had, he would be playing up at Old Trafford, and not in L1.

Pradictable reply on here. If any striker scores every chance he has he'd end up at old Trafford. If Barnes scored what he comfortably should have this season, he'd easily be on 20 by now. If he hasn't got the experience to do that, and I doubt he ever will, then surely he's not good enough to play for a top of the table League one side as the title says? Is he?

 

[samtheseagull]

some fans are shit. because were top of the league if we dont smash everyone 3-0 some of our fans find a player to abuse. yer i admit we have had some wank players but i would never slag them off from behind my keyboard, it doesnt help anyone. Are you really a fan if you write such shit about one of our players? i dont think so. But im sure if ashley did read this bollocks he would relise thats it just a few fans that watch too much premership football and expect our players to be the next rooney or torres.

 

[KneeOn]

I completey agree he is out second top scorer. Thats a fact. What I am saying is doesn't mean hes brilliant. If he starts Tuesday, and I seriously doubt he will. Watch him.

Watch Murray, watch Noone watch Wood read the game. Watch how when the ball is in the air or along the ground coming towards them, they set themselves, they receive the ball in there head, before its got to them. When it arrives, they are backing into a defender holding it up, flicking it around a defender, basicallly ready to do something with the ball.

Then watch Barnes, he'll react after the balls got to him, which means he's normally out of position. It means he adjusting himself to get to the ball, and nine times out of ten, the ball coming back at us, whereas the others mentioned are using to the ball to our attacking advantage, having already set themselves. How many times this season has the ball been played to Barnes who then reacts as its gone by him, not reacting to why the ball is going to go. He doesn't read the game. I put it down to bottle, and that it was easier for him to stay out of the way, but after discussing this thread on the phone with an ex pro player, who seems to think its nothing to do with bottle its purely down to he can't read the game as he should.

Dont take my word for it, watch Barnes closely and compare him to the others mentioned. He's a class and more below Murray, Wood, Noone, Sandaza, and as much as it pains me Hart, who is completely past it himself in my opinion. Just watch him, and don't get blinded by the facts if he scores a penalty or get a tap in of the back of someones hard work. Watch his moment, his reading of the game, and then come back here and tell me hes good enough to play in a League one side at the top of the league. If Murray goes or sits on the bench, and we have to relay on Barnes for the rest of hte season, we're in trouble.

Saying he's below Hart means any credibility you had as some one having a worthy debate with has be shot at repeatedly. You, in this case (because usually you're fairly sound) are an absolute fuckwit of the highest fuckwitery scale as championed by sir f*** of wits, witfuck wit-wicky.

 

[Mr Burns]

1) Who said they wanted to only use stats to judge him? No one, they just want it to be part of the argument.
2) Stats can be used to show support for many things, but only for things they can actually support. For you to find stats to make Barnes look bad you have ignored 3 months of the so far 5 we've played this season, the two you focus on were the ones in which the entire team was underperforming and several matches were postponed, in such an obvious attempt to spin the stats. When you are using stats to prove something they don't naturally support, it becomes quite obvious that you're twisting them, as in this case.

Exactly my point. I fully admitted to that if you read it. Stats can be used to say anything.

But a lot on here are not using the good Stats, ie 10 goals, as PART of their argument as you suggest. Most are using it AS their argument.

 

[mona]

Before you say, oh another thread about Barnes, than don't read or post in it.
Before you quote stats, don't. Stick to the stat filled PC Manager games

But I thought earlier in the season that Barnes was not up to wearing the stripes, and after watching him numerous times, yesterdays performance at Bournemouth proved to me that he is out of his depth, and is never going to be the half decent striker we hope he will become, unless he toughens up and grows a pair of bollocks.

Strikers, like central defenders need to be able to take a whack and dish one out, otherwise they won't make it in 99% of cases. Look at Al Abd. He aint performing like he is because of his skill. He wins the battle with most strikers in the first ten minutes of a game. Barnes yesterday was a complete waste of space and was very lucky not to leave the ground in an Ambulance. Just compare him to Murray. Nearly every time Murray goes up for a header, he wins it. Even when he completely missed a flick on yesterday, the defenders marking him flicked it on for him. They are so worried about Murray they make mistakes. When Barnes goes up for a header, its half hearted, going through the motions. He hardly ever wins any, and all you see from him is a cowardly pulling in of the shoulder and ducking his head out of the way. Its the same with tackles, he dangles a leg, and never makes a hard challenge. He must be a center half's dream too play against. When the Bournemouth center half's saw the team yesterday, they must have been pissing themselves laughing. Instead of having Murray who was going to be a danger all afternoon, they had to put up with Barnes, who's only danger to them was going to be getting a headache from all his whining. Refs are never going to give Barnes a 50/50 decision, because they can see the way he plays. He always looking to get out of the way and go down before the balls near him. BE honest, how many of think of Barnes, and see a picture in your mind of him sitting on his arse, arms out by his side with a look of disbelief on his face because he didn't get a free kick?

He was so lucky yesterday when he was on the receiving end of that second half crunching tackle, that his leg wasn't snapped in two. The first thing you teach a player, is never pull out of a tackle, or never just dangle your leg at a tackle, as you are a lot more in danger of getting seriously injured, then if you tackle hard yourself. When he got hit, I honestly though he'd broke his leg, and if he carries on like that it wont belong before a career ending injury comes along.

The boy is just too lightweight for pro football, and all the time he has a hole in his arse he wont make it. He'll find his level in the conference within a couple of years. Unless of course he learns to toughen up, but in most cases you cannot teach someone bottle, you either have bottle or you don't. You can get away with being and playing like a tart in some positions, but not as a striker. I think his only hope to go and do a bit of UFC training and learn to overcome his weakness and tartness, and learn how to take a whack.

In addition to his weak challenging at headers and that near leg breaking tackle, did you notice that when he an Murray& Barnes broke yesterday and Murray squared it, Barnes went hiding behind the defender. Murray squared it, and Barnes was nowhere. If he had done as he was meant to do and get in front of the defender, he would have either got a shot and probably scored, or got fouled and got a penalty. Either way he'd have got a whack, so that probably why he went and hid behind the defender, where he was nice and safe. The only way we would have scored there was an own goal, or if the defender fluffed it. But, no he'll wait for the unchallenged chances too add to his goal tally.

Now before people quote his stats, I think any other striker at the club could match these or better his goal tally given the game time and position Barnes has had this season. I even think if you got an old pro like John Byrne, he'd have easily matched Barnes tally, even without playing or training for 10 years. What I'm saying is, even through Barnes is the second highest scorer, any striker given Barnes' chances would easily match it. As a team we have been creating so much, we could have doubled our goal tally with the right striker this season.

You've just gotta take a look at the amount of chances Barnes as missed, most of which, I think is down to his bottle. I haven't looked, but I bet a lot of Barnes goals have been from unchallenged shots. No doubt he can strike a good shot when given time, and if football was a non contact sport, he'd be one of the best, but its not, and he's not.

I still see Murray just as much as a provider than a scorer if not more the provider, and I think the way the game turned at Bournemouth when he come on yesterday proves it. He'll chase things down, get stuck it and create chances of others, and cause defences problems, whereas Barnes isn't gong to cause any defence problems. I bet if you went back to yesterdays game, Barnes took a whack and threats from a defender early on, and after that he was shit scared of getting involved, and until he can learn to toughen up a bit, his only hope is to become a winger or he will fade away, and if he doesn't learn to toughen up then I hope he fades away sooner rather than later, because without a player like Murray in the side, he is a waste of space, and if I was a player of Murrays ability, and got dropped for Ashley Barnes yesterday, I'd tell Gus where to stick his new contract.... (although obviously in a nice way because of Gus' god like status, I wouldn't be rude too him at it!!)

yawn yawn

Thank f*ck you don't pick the team.
Why do you think anyone with half a brain can be arsed to read your boring drivel?
Football is a team game. I think you've picked on the wrong weakness but I can't be arsed to write a 1000 words.
Obviously Gus got the team wrong yesterday but yawn yawn

 

[Meade's Ball]

Look, Mr Burns, you don't think he's good enough. You've made your point. What other ideas do you have so that we can be further clear at the top of the table?

 

[Mr Burns]

Saying he's below Hart means any credibility you had as some one having a worthy debate with has be shot at repeatedly. You, in this case (because usually you're fairly sound) are an absolute fuckwit of the highest fuckwitery scale as championed by sir f*** of wits, witfuck wit-wicky.

I notice as a typical student you do pick and chose what you reply too. You seem to reply to everying else before that reply, so try replying to all of what I said instead of trying to miss out the bits you dont want to reply to. You get away it is most of the time, but soon people pick out the true fuckwits. Yes, it does sound a stupid comment about Hart, but not thats hes ever going to play again, but at least Hart can read the game, which Barnes can't and was point of the post. But picking out just thaty one part, and ignoring the main points makes to look a fuckwit...... to people that understand proper football, not students....

 

[Mr Burns]

yawn yawn

Thank f*ck you don't pick the team.
Why do you think anyone with half a brain can be arsed to read your boring drivel?
Football is a team game. I think you've picked on the wrong weakness but I can't be arsed to write a 1000 words.
Obviously Gus got the team wrong yesterday but yawn yawn

Thats for adding to the debate. Brought it along nicely.

 

[kevtherev]

People can blar blar blar as much as they like. Ashley Barnes would have been a good player for us in years gone past. He is better than Harty(in terms of finding the net) and he is better than other strikers we have had, in years gone past. The fact is we are not the mid table/bottom half club we have been for last few years. Anyone that thinks Barnes is quality and we should stick with him, is either to young to remember better times, or a very bad judge of a player. And to think that someone on another thread said he would rather have Barnes/Wood over someone like an old Phillips for the run in, is basically an idiot!

 

[KneeOn]

I notice as a typical student you do pick and chose what you reply too. You seem to reply to everying else before that reply, so try replying to all of what I said instead of trying to miss out the bits you dont want to reply to. You get away it is most of the time, but soon people pick out the true fuckwits. Yes, it does sound a stupid comment about Hart, but not thats hes ever going to play again, but at least Hart can read the game, which Barnes can't and was point of the post. But picking out just thaty one part, and ignoring the main points makes to look a fuckwit...... to people that understand proper football, not students....

- when one facepalm isn't enough.

You're seriously bringing in my status as a student in to your fuckwitted statement that Barnes is shit despite gus's obvious approval, his continual ability to push in to goal scoring positions, the ten times he HAS scored this year, his young age, raw pace, natural talent etc and the fact he has played 24 games so far and we're top of our league and have been for 16 weeks because you've got nothing else to use?

f***ing old people, typical old person response really. The fact you even MENTIONED Harts ability or lack off at this level compared to Barnes (2008 was Harts last goal yeah?) makes you look like a f*** wit, to propper people who under stand propper football, not old people who still remember 1966 as if it were yesterday... or not as the case may be by this stage in your life.

See, i can insult you with your age too, or how i see your age because of your condencending statements about a player who has been one of our our top three strikers playing in a team that is top by 3 points, for 16 weeks, who has played 14 games and scored 10 goals in this time.

 

[El Presidente]

Thats for adding to the debate. Brought it along nicely.

I initially had some sympathy for your argument Mr B, I think there are aspects to Ash's game that need improvement, but he does have time on his side, and in the meantime his goalscoring, and goalmaking, has been of benefit to us.

What gets on my goat is the snide sneering nature about the lad that bring into your posts. You come across as an embittered, jealous old man, and that is where you lose both credibility and sympathy.

My take on the issue is as follows:

Is Ash the finished article? No.
Will he ever be? Not sure
Is he good value for £80,000? Yes
Do we have significantly better alternatives at the club? No
Is he our best striker? No

 

[Mr Burns]

Look, Mr Burns, you don't think he's good enough. You've made your point. What other ideas do you have so that we can be further clear at the top of the table?

Sort the Murray situation out now, and don't f***ing make light of it.

Poyet is a god, and he'll take us on to uncharted ground, but he f***ed up big time yesterday, and he's a young manager he going to make cock ups, hes said it himself. Firstly leaving Murray out, he was on a hiding to nothing. We win, great evferyone expects it. If Murray had come on and won the game for us, and very nearly did, because if the goal stood, we may have gone on to win it, he would have gone back to Gus and said, actually I want more now, I've just proved how much you need me.

For Gus to say He's not in a hurry, so we're not in a hurry, is the wrong thing to say. Fine, think it, do it, but to say it on the radio after the game is just stoking up the situation. Bottom line, if we get a decent offer for Murray before next week, he'll be gone. His agent is probaly trying to sell him to every championship club, and Murray can sign for them when he like. Without Murray up front, we're f***ed. Wood and BArnes up front as proved yesterday is not close to being a championship winning front line. I think he sould either drop Murray totally, or play him. But dont f*** about with him, and if you are going to f*** him about, drop him for the CUp game, not the game against your closet rivals. If he's still here in February, whether he signs or not, you've gotta play him. We need him more than he needs us at the moment.

 

[kevtherev]

Goalscoring is instinctive, not something that can be learnt....end of

 

[Mr Burns]

- when one facepalm isn't enough.

You're seriously bringing in my status as a student in to your fuckwitted statement that Barnes is shit despite gus's obvious approval, his continual ability to push in to goal scoring positions, the ten times he HAS scored this year, his young age, raw pace, natural talent etc and the fact he has played 24 games so far and we're top of our league and have been for 16 weeks because you've got nothing else to use?

f***ing old people, typical old person response really. The fact you even MENTIONED Harts ability or lack off at this level compared to Barnes (2008 was Harts last goal yeah?) makes you look like a f*** wit, to propper people who under stand propper football, not old people who still remember 1966 as if it were yesterday... or not as the case may be by this stage in your life.

See, i can insult you with your age too, or how i see your age because of your condencending statements about a player who has been one of our our top three strikers playing in a team that is top by 3 points, for 16 weeks, who has played 14 games and scored 10 goals in this time.

You can insult me with the age thing (and I aint that old), of course you can, as it stops you answering the main point in the thread... again. Typical student reply. Are you studing politics. You'd be good at it. Answer the debate until you cant or dont want to, and then just try and change the subject. And is fuckwit your favourite word?

 

[brightonrock]

Mr Burns, nobody disagrees with you in saying that Murray is the better player of the two. But Barnes is an asset to our team. You say people only use his goals as their argument, well I'm still struggling to see what your point is? You clearly don't like him so you moan about everything he does. What exactly IS it you're looking for in a striker? Only I look for someone who scores goals. And he scores them. So he is useful to our team. Rather than thinking, "sure, he scores, but he isn't strong, so he's SHIT!!", which seems to be the gist of your argument?