Another parking ticket thread (sorry!)

[Notters]

I have to say, I normally think your posts are intelligent, thoughtful and balanced but in this case you couldn't be more wrong. It's not a fine anyway - no company has the legal right to fine a person.

Thanks for all your advice Westdene, it's a great help. I had a look on Pepipoo but it isn't laid out very well...

I've never had anything like this before as I wouldn't knowingly break any rules.

 

[Notters]

quite right - its apparently a "Parking enforcement contractual payment charge". are you saying people have no right to apply and enforce parking on on thier private property, or employ an agent to do so? if not, why not? if they have the right, why assume that its not legal, and that anyone should ignore the charge? i've lived with communal parking near town and it can be a pain in the arse. as told, it seems a fair cop, why not ask if permits required or what ever the arrangment is?

To be honest, it just never occurred to me that the spaces marked for visitors would need a permit. The other spaces had big signs saying "residents' parking only".

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Thanks for all your advice Westdene, it's a great help. I had a look on Pepipoo but it isn't laid out very well...

I've never had anything like this before as I wouldn't knowingly break any rules.

I agree with you about Pepipoo - try MSE and go to the parking forum. Much more like the NSC layout.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

quite right - its apparently a "Parking enforcement contractual payment charge". are you saying people have no right to apply and enforce parking on on thier private property, or employ an agent to do so? if not, why not? if they have the right, why assume that its not legal, and that anyone should ignore the charge?

as the story is told, it seems a fair cop. why not ask if permits required or what ever the arrangment is? if he can say visting flat x then that might be sufficient, so why is that not sensible?

I'm not suggesting parking enforcement should be ignored BUT all the landowner ( NOT the PPC ) can claim is loses from the person parking. The landowner would struggle to prove the £75 ( I am guessing at the level of the "fine" ) has been lost due to Notters parking in a Visitors spot. How have they lost money when he hasn't displayed a visitors permit compared to losing no money if he had displayed a permit ? As I said - it's a scam.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Thanks for all your advice Westdene, it's a great help. I had a look on Pepipoo but it isn't laid out very well...

I've never had anything like this before as I wouldn't knowingly break any rules.

Send in the soft appeal and see what happens. If they reject it then PM me for the wording of your POPLA appeal - you won't lose.

 

[mune ni kamome]

Ah ... the mysterious "signs" in bays. How do you know that "V" means "visitors"? It might mean "reserved for Vera".

Eastbourne Town Hall car park has bays marked "Cllrs". Eastbourne Council thinks this means "councillors". When I used to go there regularly, with colleagues from East Sussex County Council, we used to treat the sign as meaning "callers".

Fools! The "V" means Vicente of course

 

[Notters]

Send in the soft appeal and see what happens. If they reject it then PM me for the wording of your POPLA appeal - you won't lose.

MSE seems to suggest you should argue in your initial letter though?! and that only 55% win with Popla?

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Don't pay. It is not "contractual". They will write 3 times. Dispute the "fine" each time and say it was not stated that you could not park there as a Visitor. Check out the websites about parking fines as there is a distinct difference between the non validity of private parking fines such as yours, compared with Local Authority fines. Private firms make their money, now that wheel clamping has been clamped down on so to speak, by getting people to pay these type of fines. They are ONLY enforecaeble if they pay to take you to court which is unlikely as it will cost them about £100 to do so and they won't win if you show the fine is not compatible with their loss etc.

Anyone?!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

MSE seems to suggest you should argue in your initial letter though?! and that only 55% win with Popla?

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

Look at the latest advice - particularly from Storma. That 55% win rate include people who appeal based on circumstances - I didn't see the signs, I had broken down, I bumped into Kelly Brook in the car park and forgot the time. You MUST appeal to POPLA on the PPC not adhering to the BPA code or breaking the law - i.e. the "fine" doesn't represent a true loss. MSE and Pepipoo have a 100% success rate at POPLA appeals.

 

[Notters]

Look at the latest advice - particularly from Storma. That 55% win rate include people who appeal based on circumstances - I didn't see the signs, I had broken down, I bumped into Kelly Brook in the car park and forgot the time. You MUST appeal to POPLA on the PPC not adhering to the BPA code or breaking the law - i.e. the "fine" doesn't represent a true loss. MSE and Pepipoo have a 100% success rate at POPLA appeals.

So I would be appealing on point 2:


1. The vehicle was not improperly parked. If you weren't parked where the operator said you were, you hadn't overstayed, you clearly displayed your ticket or there weren't proper signs in place.
2. The parking charge exceeds the relevant amount. If you've been asked to pay the wrong amount, or have already paid the charge.
3. The vehicle was stolen. What it says on the tin - this covers if your car was ticketed while stolen (not if you'd lent it to someone).
4. I am not liable for the parking charge. This covers if you'd sold the vehicle or bought it after the alleged parking gaffe.
The "fine" is £100, by the way!

 

[LadySeagull]

MSE seems to suggest you should argue in your initial letter though?! and that only 55% win with Popla?

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

You have gone to the articles on MSE and not to the forum, easy mistake! Forget the articles, they are not written recently and not by those who know how to win at POPLA. You want the forum if you want to read advice.

Myself and Westdene Seagull are on the forum at MSE and among other regulars there, we write and link examples of POPLA appeals for people when needed and on the MSE Parking FORUM (where you should have looked) we win 100% of POPLA appeals. Never lost one since March when we learnt how POPLA adjudicators' minds work.

Here's the MSE parking forum to read a few threads:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

and here's the pepipoo parking forum:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

EDIT - ONLY WHEN YOU RECEIVE THE FIRST LETTER IN A MONTH OR SO (NOTICE TO KEEPER) then send the letter exactly as advised by Westdene Seagull. No need for more at that time but your winning POPLA appeal will be a different kettle of fish. Was your scammer Sussex Security Solutions, or who was it?

NO-ONE SHOULD BE DEFENDING THESE FIRMS AND NO-ONE SHOULD EVER PAY A FAKE PCN.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

If I recall, as I was issued with a "fine" in Corals car park 18 months ago in Hove which I disputed and eventually won, the driver of the car is responsible for paying the fine not the car owner and you do not legally have to tell a private firm who was driving the vehicle. Check out the websites on this point as you could dispute the fact that your were driving?

So I would be appealing on point 2:


1. The vehicle was not improperly parked. If you weren't parked where the operator said you were, you hadn't overstayed, you clearly displayed your ticket or there weren't proper signs in place.
2. The parking charge exceeds the relevant amount. If you've been asked to pay the wrong amount, or have already paid the charge.
3. The vehicle was stolen. What it says on the tin - this covers if your car was ticketed while stolen (not if you'd lent it to someone).
4. I am not liable for the parking charge. This covers if you'd sold the vehicle or bought it after the alleged parking gaffe.
The "fine" is £100, by the way!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So I would be appealing on point 2:


1. The vehicle was not improperly parked. If you weren't parked where the operator said you were, you hadn't overstayed, you clearly displayed your ticket or there weren't proper signs in place.
2. The parking charge exceeds the relevant amount. If you've been asked to pay the wrong amount, or have already paid the charge.
3. The vehicle was stolen. What it says on the tin - this covers if your car was ticketed while stolen (not if you'd lent it to someone).
4. I am not liable for the parking charge. This covers if you'd sold the vehicle or bought it after the alleged parking gaffe.
The "fine" is £100, by the way!

You're getting a little ahead of yourself - those points are POPLA appeal points ( point 4 is the one you would go for anyway based on you're not liable given the PPC hasn't lost any money ).

Appeal to the PPC in anyway you want ( just don't say who the driver was ) - there is someone called Parking Prankster who appealed based on the fact he's been bitten by a radio active spider !

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If I recall, as I was issued with a "fine" in Corals car park 18 months ago in Hove which I disputed and eventually won, the driver of the car is responsible for paying the fine not the car owner and you do not legally have to tell a private firm who was driving the vehicle. Check out the websites on this point as you could dispute the fact that your were driving?

That was pre-POFA ( October 2012 ) so in your case you were correct. Now, thanks to POFA, the registered keeper can be held responsible if the driver can't be or isn't identified.

 

[LadySeagull]

So I would be appealing on point 2:


1. The vehicle was not improperly parked. If you weren't parked where the operator said you were, you hadn't overstayed, you clearly displayed your ticket or there weren't proper signs in place.
2. The parking charge exceeds the relevant amount. If you've been asked to pay the wrong amount, or have already paid the charge.
3. The vehicle was stolen. What it says on the tin - this covers if your car was ticketed while stolen (not if you'd lent it to someone).
4. I am not liable for the parking charge. This covers if you'd sold the vehicle or bought it after the alleged parking gaffe.
The "fine" is £100, by the way!

You don't have to choose that box or boxes yet, that's at POPLA stage and you'd be ticking 3 out of 4 boxes (just not the 'stolen' one). Then you'd attach a winning long POPLA appeal.

But for when you get the Notice to Keeper in the post*, it's a very short soft appeal just to elicit a POPLA code, that's all it's for. These scam firms aren't worth the effort of a detailed early appeal as it's not a fine nor an offence - and you need to be careful not to accidentally add in sentences that tell them who was driving.

Your position is stronger if you write at 'Notice to Keeper' stage (only when you get the first letter) and at POPLA stage, as the registered keeper, not as the driver.





*Come to think of it, I have just realised you have only got a windscreen fake PCN so far? So we are jumping the gun, don't even send the short appeal yet. Wait for the first letter to arrive unless you are not the registered keeper.

 

[Notters]

*Come to think of it, I have just realised you have only got a windscreen fake PCN so far? So we are jumping the gun, don't even send the short appeal yet. Wait for the first letter to arrive unless you are not the registered keeper.

Yes, I just have the windscreen notice, and yes, it was Sussex Security Solutions.

So I definitely shouldn't write until I get a letter, even though the "fine" will go up?

 

[DanielT]

Sorry Notters, the law has obviously changed since I got one. I wouldn't stress though if MSE state a 100% success rate when following their advice.

Well done to Westdene Seagull and LadySeagull.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes, I just have the windscreen notice, and yes, it was Sussex Security Solutions.

So I definitely shouldn't write until I get a letter, even though the "fine" will go up?

Always follow what LadySeagull says - she knows her onions !

Yes, wait until you get the notice to keeper letter. The "fine" can't go up because they still have to offer the discount to the keeper but the funny bit is that it will have cost them £2.50 to get your details.

 

[LadySeagull]

Yes, I just have the windscreen notice, and yes, it was Sussex Security Solutions.

So I definitely shouldn't write until I get a letter, even though the "fine" will go up?

Yep - as long as this is not a hire or lease/company car where some idiot at a company might fall for the scam and pay it like it's a real fine instead of following industry guidelines and simply naming the driver - wait for the NTK and forget the level of the 'charge' because you won't be paying it.

Here's a thread about Sussex Security Solutions from pepipoo, only in that thread the OP wrote to SSS too soon and would have been better to have waited for the postal NTK (hence it took him nearly 2 months to get a POPLA code at last, and just look on page3 how the PPC scammers typically hid the POPLA code as a random 10 digits in a paragraph about 'how to pay'!):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=79069&st=0&start=0

...they are an absolute pariah in Brighton who have actually won a few small claims in the past - but goodness knows how given the non-compliance of their signage and the fact their 'charge' isn't a genuine estimate of any loss (as it has to be). PPCs can't go round pretending to fine people any old amount but sadly a lot of people think they can just because their piece of paper on the windscreen mimics a real parking ticket. In reality it has as much clout as a Burger King flyer plonked on a car at ToysRUs!!

Win at POPLA and it's cancelled. And you will win at POPLA with our advice.

 

[Notters]

Yep - as long as this is not a hire or lease/company car where some idiot at a company might fall for the scam and pay it like it's a real fine instead of following industry guidelines and simply naming the driver - wait for the NTK and forget the level of the 'charge' because you won't be paying it.

Here's a thread about Sussex Security Solutions from pepipoo, only in that thread the OP wrote to SSS too soon and would have been better to have waited for the postal NTK (hence it took him nearly 2 months to get a POPLA code at last, and just look on page3 how the PPC scammers typically hid the POPLA code as a random 10 digits in a paragraph about 'how to pay'!):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=79069&st=0&start=0

...they are an absolute pariah in Brighton who have actually won a few small claims in the past - but goodness knows how given the non-compliance of their signage and the fact their 'charge' isn't a genuine estimate of any loss (as it has to be). PPCs can't go round pretending to fine people any old amount but sadly a lot of people think they can just because their piece of paper on the windscreen mimics a real parking ticket. In reality it has as much clout as a Burger King flyer plonked on a car at ToysRUs!!

Win at POPLA and it's cancelled. And you will win at POPLA with our advice.

Thank you