7-1 Why the hell can't England do that?

[Pogue Mahone]

after all these posts, its noted that noone has brought up the FA's recent proposals, which we as fans roundly turned on and dismissed. no one really want to do whats necessary, we just want to blame someone (FA/Sky/Players/Barber, anyone really)

You bang on and on about this.

The reason that people are so against Greg Dyke's B team idea is that most of us think that it would do nothing to improve English football, while destroying a lot of our traditional football culture. It would not work.

We need to change the way we coach kids, and the Dutch model discussed above sounds like the way forward. And more coaches.

 

[Lindfield by the Pond]

A few years ago I took a one-week FA course on coaching kids. It was for ex-professional players only, but due to some work I was doing at the time I got to take the course with them (my 'buddy' for the week was big Andy Morrison, one of the gentlest and nicest men you could ever meet, by the way).

The coaches and psychologists at the FA kept coming back to - unsurprisingly - "the Dutch model". If you're an eleven-year-old in The Netherlands (at an elite club), you play seven-a-side on a small pitch. Every ten minutes or so, the referee blows his whistle and every player switches position - the goalkeeper goes to right-back, the right-back to centre-back, the left-back into midfield, etc. No-one keeps score and there are no leagues.

The startlingly basic point of this set-up is that high performance and 'winning behaviours' don't matter at that age - who, in the grand scheme of things, really gives a toss who wins a local under-12s league? Technique, skills-accumulation and enjoyment are the only valid criteria. Performance and winning are not discussed or introduced until 14 / 15 years of age.

Contrast this with the typical English experience - practice and training involve concepts and values that most kids are way too young to grasp or put into practice. Tiny children slog their guts out on muddy, full-sized pitches, with wingers touching the ball about once every ten minutes. Fathers berate their kids for not 'getting stuck' in, and throw their toys out of the pram when a bunch of eight-year-olds lose a game.

The solution (long-term) is about changing this culture. Give kids a lot of touches of a football. Don't tell them at nine years old "you're a right-back". Let them enjoy and express themselves. And perhaps most importantly, remove results / performance / winning from the equation until an appropriate age.

My impression form the coaches was that they'd tried to bring these changes about, but the prevailing culture just wouldn't allow it. It was too difficult to shift the thinking of amateur coaches and parents.

We have been talking about this as a nation for about 10-12 years, all informed people agree. Small pitches, many touches etc. It's what has been talked about for the last 10 years as being the way forward. Suggest that parents should scream at their kids from the sidelines, and you become the local pariah. But the culture continues? How? Why?

Don't see youth football, so really difficult for me to appreciate why and how this attitude continues to prevail?

 

[Stumpy Tim]

I've said it before: maybe the best way to improve the England team would be somehow to remove the crazy amount of money sloshing around in the Prem, which in turn creates talented but arrogant underachievers like Rooney or Ashley Cole: bloated on too much money from their clubs. I dunno.

You've probably picked two of the worst examples to back up your argument. Rooney will end up England's leading scorer of all-time and Cole has over 100 caps. Both have Premier League & Champions League winning medals.

I worry more about players like Scott Sinclair & Micah Richards, who should be playing for England but have disappeared.

 

[drew]

We have been talking about this as a nation for about 10-12 years, all informed people agree. Small pitches, many touches etc. It's what has been talked about for the last 10 years as being the way forward. Suggest that parents should scream at their kids from the sidelines, and you become the local pariah. But the culture continues? How? Why?

Don't see youth football, so really difficult for me to appreciate why and how this attitude continues to prevail?

Youth football has changed. Small sided games on smaller pitches with smaller goals. Check out thd fa youth review and educate yourself!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Youth football has changed. Small sided games on smaller pitches with smaller goals. Check out thd fa youth review and educate yourself!

And then when a very young player shows promise they're gobbled up by a big club and then the FA has no say in their training and education.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Youth football has changed. Small sided games on smaller pitches with smaller goals. Check out thd fa youth review and educate yourself!

It is definitely better than it was. It is very recent though - my son is 17, and as soon as he hit Year 6, when he was 10/11, it was 11-a-side, full size pitches. He was a small lad, and a tricky winger. He lasted another year or so.

It is still too competitive, and the biggest cultural change needed is in parental expectations. Perhaps parents should be kept away until they can change their attitudes!

 

[drew]

It is definitely better than it was. It is very recent though - my son is 17, and as soon as he hit Year 6, when he was 10/11, it was 11-a-side, full size pitches. He was a small lad, and a tricky winger. He lasted another year or so.

It is still too competitive, and the biggest cultural change needed is in parental expectations. Perhaps parents should be kept away until they can change their attitudes!

But currently, u10 and below can't play in a league format nor have results recorded and published. Next year (2015/16) that will extend to u11s. I'll say it again, change s now will not affect the national team for many years.

 

[MarioOrlandi]

Not forgetting the German ability to change tactics during the match or am I the only one to notice that they changed from 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1 and moved their defensive line up 25 yards when they realised that Brazil were in headless chicken mode.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But currently, u10 and below can't play in a league format nor have results recorded and published. Next year (2015/16) that will extend to u11s. I'll say it again, change s now will not affect the national team for many years.

Oh, absolutely, it'll take a long time.

And changes need to be even more extreme than they have been so far.

 

[drew]

Oh, absolutely, it'll take a long time.

And changes need to be even more extreme than they have been so far.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the changes are the panacea for all of our football woes but I get fed up with people spouting off without bothering to check to see what has been done.

People who want success suggest we should follow the Dutch model. That's the Dutch model that has brought them one international tournament and who's match tonight hasn't been exactly thrilling. If it is success we are after, surely we should follow the Brazilian model as they have won 5 world cups but we have seen their international quality recently and I'm not sure I'd like England to emulate that! We could copy the Germans but they haven't won anything since 1996! The only thing you can say is that no one knows the formula.

 

[Lindfield by the Pond]

Youth football has changed. Small sided games on smaller pitches with smaller goals. Check out thd fa youth review and educate yourself!

Hi Drew, I think we agree. That's exactly what I thought we were doing.

However, when we drop out of tournaments, the reasons given (see this thread eg. Big Unit's comments) are blaming kids set up - parents applauding the big lump, the goal, and ignoring the skills, touches of the ball etc. This is trotted out continually. Which view is true?

I believe we have changed, and that we will start to see the benefits in a few years time. Those that trot out the "Parents screaming at the touch lines", do so from a previously formed opinion and need to bring themselves up to date.

 

[Big_Unit]

Can you tell me where you have seen kids in the last couple of years playing on full size pitches in 11 a side competitions?

I haven't, Drew - the course I went on took place 8 or 9 years ago, so I'm perfectly willing to accept things may have changed. Hope so! I don't watch kids football (my only child is totally uninterested) so I'm no expert. Just relaying my (limited) experience.

 

[Justice]

Why oh Why can't England do that - Similar League set ups in both countries I don't believe individually Germany's players are that much better than ours. Surely give it a few years to pull together and maybe England could get it right.

Because the FA keep appointing clueless England managers.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

The Germans throughout history have been, first and foremost, masters of planning and preparation and ruthlessly efficient in everything they do. They rebuilt themselves with lightning speed post 1945 and a full recovery was underway post 1918 until that was scuppered by the USA financial crash which had devastating effects on their economy.
They build things to last. Its called ' long-termism ' The ruling Nazi party were instrumental in creating the autobahn road system throughout the country. They saw the need for moving goods and sevices quickly and indeed, military hardware as well.
They constructed these roads to a depth far in excess of the UK's road building criteria, to ensure they would last and never exceeded a certain gradient percentage to ensure that heavier goods vehicles weren't slowed by long uphill climbs. What happens in this country? Our roads are constantly under repair and heavy goods vehicles chugging slowly up lengthy inclines on dual carriageways and motorways cause problems. We repair roads in this country as cheaply as possible and we keep having to do it over and over again.
What the hell has this got to do with football you might ask? Well, it demonstrates the difference in attitude between the two countries. With our football, its always the quick fix. No long term planning. Greg Dyke has laid down his blueprint but until the right structure is in place, its just words on paper. As previous posters have said, when the Germans are struggling ( which isn't very often ) they put the right framework in place to ensure future success. They start at the bottom and work up. They put the right ethos in place, so they all think alike and are united. It is a clear plan so the fans can see it and are prepared to be patient. They get the right men in charge, with talent and foresight. They master the basics and then wait for everything else to slot into place.
In this country, we have two major problems.
1) The FA. Our governing body who have no clear strategy other than paying for Wembley Stadium. This was a build that was originally budgetted for 250-300 million and ended up costing 750 million...." Oh, it was sharp rises in costs of raw materials "...they argued....codswallop...it was back-handers, theft, fraud and corruption that stumped up the cost to this ridiculous level. They were culpable in this and have put a millstone round the necks of English football for years. They are only bothered about raising enough revenue to pay for their misdemeanours. Just qualifying for final tournaments is enough for them. The revenue takes care of itself then. They are not that bothered about progressing...quarters would be good...keep the fans happy...lower expectations...second best acceptable.
2) The Premier League. Overburdened with overpaid, overseas players with just a sprinkling of home-grown talent. Such is the extent of non-English talent that they are carried by the rest. It is argued that they learn from having good players around them but when you see them exposed, wearing their national shirt, you suddenly realise that they aren't learning. They can't even carry out the basics, under pressure. i.e passing to the same colour shirt and controlling the ball. They are not being forced to take enough responsiblity at club level and therefore cannot take it at international level.
We are inherently lazier than the Germans in planning and preparation. We don't look and learn at other sports in this country that have got it right. Rowing ( Since they appointed Jurgen Grobbler...best coach in the world.) the sport has gone from strength to strength and now we expect to win. Same with cycling and to some extent, the same in Rugby Union under Clive Woodward, where he went back to basics and left no stone unturned in preparation. Football thinks its preparing for the future but it isn't until there is a complete change in mindset. Some strong decisions have to be taken and sadly, I don't think much will change. The complete endorsement of Roy Hodgson after our worst World Cup results for 56 years says a lot.
In the meantime, the Germans will carry on planning and preparing and winning, whilst we carry on scratching our heads and saying..." why can't we be like them? "

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Self-styled unhinged humour, do you also wear a wacky tie to work?

No, I leave that to the sort of person who'd wear a 'wacky' cravat to an Arcade Fire gig.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

after all these posts, its noted that noone has brought up the FA's recent proposals, which we as fans roundly turned on and dismissed. no one really want to do whats necessary, we just want to blame someone (FA/Sky/Players/Barber, anyone really)

The recent FA proposals have got nothing to do with improving the English national team and everything with exercising the power of the Premier League clubs by turning the lower leagues into their plaything. You've simply fallen for the spin that it will help the England team. Remember when it was said that the advent of the Premier League would help the English national side too? This is from the same PR line and just as empty.

 

[spring hall convert]

Englands 5-1 win over Germany in 2001 was a great performance without doubt, but when was the last time England put in a performance of that standard in a tournament?

Euro '96 vs Holland wasn't it?

And that was a dead rubber IIRC.

 

[spring hall convert]

I worry more about players like Scott Sinclair & Micah Richards, who should be playing for England but have disappeared.

Prime examples of players who had their development stopped in their tracks because of too many foreign players being above them in the pecking order. Both represented England and excelled at youth level but have gone nowehere.

However, you have to ask in these two cases, why are these two guys content to just pick up their money and not play. Where's their professional pride?

 

[drew]

The Germans throughout history have been, first and foremost, masters of planning and preparation and ruthlessly efficient in everything they do. They rebuilt themselves with lightning speed post 1945 and a full recovery was underway post 1918 until that was scuppered by the USA financial crash which had devastating effects on their economy.
They build things to last. Its called ' long-termism ' The ruling Nazi party were instrumental in creating the autobahn road system throughout the country. They saw the need for moving goods and sevices quickly and indeed, military hardware as well.
They constructed these roads to a depth far in excess of the UK's road building criteria, to ensure they would last and never exceeded a certain gradient percentage to ensure that heavier goods vehicles weren't slowed by long uphill climbs. What happens in this country? Our roads are constantly under repair and heavy goods vehicles chugging slowly up lengthy inclines on dual carriageways and motorways cause problems. We repair roads in this country as cheaply as possible and we keep having to do it over and over again.
What the hell has this got to do with football you might ask? Well, it demonstrates the difference in attitude between the two countries. With our football, its always the quick fix. No long term planning. Greg Dyke has laid down his blueprint but until the right structure is in place, its just words on paper. As previous posters have said, when the Germans are struggling ( which isn't very often ) they put the right framework in place to ensure future success. They start at the bottom and work up. They put the right ethos in place, so they all think alike and are united. It is a clear plan so the fans can see it and are prepared to be patient. They get the right men in charge, with talent and foresight. They master the basics and then wait for everything else to slot into place.
In this country, we have two major problems.
1) The FA. Our governing body who have no clear strategy other than paying for Wembley Stadium. This was a build that was originally budgetted for 250-300 million and ended up costing 750 million...." Oh, it was sharp rises in costs of raw materials "...they argued....codswallop...it was back-handers, theft, fraud and corruption that stumped up the cost to this ridiculous level. They were culpable in this and have put a millstone round the necks of English football for years. They are only bothered about raising enough revenue to pay for their misdemeanours. Just qualifying for final tournaments is enough for them. The revenue takes care of itself then. They are not that bothered about progressing...quarters would be good...keep the fans happy...lower expectations...second best acceptable.
2) The Premier League. Overburdened with overpaid, overseas players with just a sprinkling of home-grown talent. Such is the extent of non-English talent that they are carried by the rest. It is argued that they learn from having good players around them but when you see them exposed, wearing their national shirt, you suddenly realise that they aren't learning. They can't even carry out the basics, under pressure. i.e passing to the same colour shirt and controlling the ball. They are not being forced to take enough responsiblity at club level and therefore cannot take it at international level.
We are inherently lazier than the Germans in planning and preparation. We don't look and learn at other sports in this country that have got it right. Rowing ( Since they appointed Jurgen Grobbler...best coach in the world.) the sport has gone from strength to strength and now we expect to win. Same with cycling and to some extent, the same in Rugby Union under Clive Woodward, where he went back to basics and left no stone unturned in preparation. Football thinks its preparing for the future but it isn't until there is a complete change in mindset. Some strong decisions have to be taken and sadly, I don't think much will change. The complete endorsement of Roy Hodgson after our worst World Cup results for 56 years says a lot.
In the meantime, the Germans will carry on planning and preparing and winning, whilst we carry on scratching our heads and saying..." why can't we be like them? "

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Drew,why the facepalm ? Can you seriously argue against this ?