[Politics] Brexit

GoldWithFalmer · Dec 4, 2016

If this were on the streets of Yorkshire,whilst waiting for a vocal response our German friend would encounter mere silence and perhaps something far worse.

Before all hell lets's loose.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 4, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
I assume you've never been to The Dales then HT ? Or indeed any of the fine eating places ? That statement is as sweeping as me saying 'Germany is grey'.

I like Sheffield and it has a lot going for it; it's reasonably culturally rich and the people are nice and fun from my experience. But Yorkshire has little else which I like and I find the people difficult.

Neville's Breakfast · Dec 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I like Sheffield and it has a lot going for it; it's reasonably culturally rich and the people are nice and fun from my experience. But Yorkshire has little else which I like and I find the people difficult.

Fair enough, sounds like you have been unlucky with the people you have met which can happen anywhere. Not sure you can generalize that to all Yorkshire people though (its certainly not my experience). As to culture, it really isn't restricted to Sheffield. Great a city that it is it doesn't reflect the full diversity of the culture of the region. Try York and other cities but also the seaside towns and the Dales etc before dismissing it as you are (in my
opinion) shooting yourself in the foot and missing out ! (Just trying to help with your next U.K. Holiday destination choice :wink:

)

Baldseagull · Dec 4, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
Perhaps Wakefield is aware of the line sold by the Tories that enriching the wealthy would lead to benefits for the rest through trickle down economics. This was the Reagan administrations plan in the 80s and it presented itself over here with the South East becoming richer on the back of inflated asset prices and a never ending supply of cheap EU Labour. Now London and other wealthy middle class areas are squealing because the rest of the country has had enough of this ever increasing inequality. If anyone becomes poorer it is unlikely to be those already left behind.

The people of Wakefield voted leave, because of Reagans trickle down economic policies in the '80's, adopted by Thatcher?
You think inequality in the UK is going to improve, under a Tory government desperate to promote growth and retain industry post Brexit? Ways to make Britain more competetive include low wages, low employment benefits, low corporation taxes and perhaps state handouts to large employers.
Without similar levels of net migration to the current levels, Government will struggle to meet the balance required, of in work and tax paying people, to state pensioners, retired public servants, sick, disabled and others that require financial expenditure, so they either maintain current levels (if there is enough work available) borrow and let the future generations pay it, raise taxes on the working, or cut payments to pensioners etc.
If we end up with no agreement on Brits in the EU being allowed to remain, and those from the EU being allowed to remain here, we will be sending back a lot of working age people to the EU and getting a lot of retirement age people back. You can say that this is unlikely but it is a possibility.
For me, this is the tragedy of Brexit, the turkeys voted for Christmas and are now fighting to get to the front of the queue at the slaughterhouse. But any time you try to point out that it is not going to end well for them, that there is a side path that involves just losing a few feathers, rather than getting your throat cut, they take offence at the suggestion that they don't know what they are doing.

Baldseagull · Dec 4, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
If pubs on a Saturday night are the supposed benchmark of the population there would be quite a few areas we could all dismiss/stereotype.

I have lived in the South, Midlands and the North (including Yorkshire).

Go to Wakefield, see the large number of men with thick necks. Perhaps it is the popularity of rugby league in those parts, but it is something I observed. I was responding to a comment about a night out in Wakefield, a night out in Wakefield means pubs. I was not at the opera.

GoldWithFalmer · Dec 4, 2016

Baldseagull said:
Go to Wakefield, see the large number of men with thick necks. Perhaps it is the popularity of rugby league in those parts, but it is something I observed. I was responding to a comment about a night out in Wakefield, a night out in Wakefield means pubs. I was not at the opera.

Working class area,not exclusive to Wakfield either vast swaths of the country from Crawley northwards,i work in Crawley and living nr Brighton could say the same about Crawley..

There is a noticeable difference in a night out in Crawley compared to Brighton.

Obviously the difference from Wakfield to Crawley is far far greater still,yet the it's still variation a on the theme,nothing more sinsiter than that.............oh and sorry for the excessive use of Crawley :lolol:

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 4, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
Fair enough, sounds like you have been unlucky with the people you have met which can happen anywhere. Not sure you can generalize that to all Yorkshire people though (its certainly not my experience). As to culture, it really isn't restricted to Sheffield. Great a city that it is it doesn't reflect the full diversity of the culture of the region. Try York and other cities but also the seaside towns and the Dales etc before dismissing it as you are (in my
opinion) shooting yourself in the foot and missing out ! (Just trying to help with your next U.K. Holiday destination choice )

I have stayed in Bradford, Halifax, York, Sheffield, Huddersfield and Scarborough over the years and visited Leeds numerous times. I feel I have a reasonable understanding of the county based on experience within the cities/towns and when I consider my experiences there, compared to others, it's not overly positive. Sheffield is nice. I also liked Huddersfield. I found the people in these places warm and fun. In Leeds for example I found it different. Maybe I had a bad day in these places but my life it too short to have another go at trying to find the fun smiling people of Doncaster. I never struggle in say Manchester or Liverpool. Yorkshire I do. Maybe it's me? But I approach every place positively and 99% of the time have very positive experiences.

GT49er · Dec 4, 2016

Baldseagull said:
If we end up with no agreement on Brits in the EU being allowed to remain, and those from the EU being allowed to remain here, we will be sending back a lot of working age people to the EU and getting a lot of retirement age people back. You can say that this is unlikely but it is a possibility.

No, it's not even a possibility. What it is is one of the most inane babblings on Project Fear. No 'agreement' is necessary. Thousands of Brits (and other EU nationals) live and work in countries outside the EU, and thousands more citizens of countries outside the EU live and work in the EU. There are no bi-lateral or multi-national 'agreements' in place to let this happen. They are not needed. And people lived and worked in foreign countries long before the EU even existed (although obviously not too much - international travel wasn't so easy back then.
So please, all you frightened remainers, get this bit of Project Fear propaganda out of your heads. Repatriation of foreign nationals wont even be anywhere near the negotiating table. Won't be discussed. Won't be mooted. Won't happen. Get it?
You might want to argue about what does 'Brexit means Brexit' means - argue all day and al night if you want - but let's get this very clear. Brexit does not mean some sort of ethnic cleansing.

GoldWithFalmer · Dec 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I have stayed in Bradford, Halifax, York, Sheffield, Huddersfield and Scarborough over the years and visited Leeds numerous times. I feel I have a reasonable understanding of the county based on experience within the cities/towns and when I consider my experiences there, compared to others, it's not overly positive. Sheffield is nice. I also liked Huddersfield. I found the people in these places warm and fun. In Leeds for example I found it different. Maybe I had a bad day in these places but my life it too short to have another go at trying to find the fun smiling people of Doncaster. I never struggle in say Manchester or Liverpool. Yorkshire I do. Maybe it's me? But I approach every place positively and 99% of the time have very positive experiences.

No i don't think it's you,Liverpool is very multicultural as it's a historic gateway city,Manchester is large enough to see that too as is Sheffield ,Leeds is getting better.....take over the road in Lancashire some folk for example in Burnley have never even ventured the 8 miles to Blackburn,never mind anywhere else.

Neville's Breakfast · Dec 4, 2016

Baldseagull said:
The people of Wakefield voted leave, because of Reagans trickle down economic policies in the '80's, adopted by Thatcher?
You think inequality in the UK is going to improve, under a Tory government desperate to promote growth and retain industry post Brexit? Ways to make Britain more competetive include low wages, low employment benefits, low corporation taxes and perhaps state handouts to large employers.

I'm not really sure why Wakefield voted Leave. There is an argument though that the increases in inequality in recent decades is a consequence of deliberate trickle down economics. The south east has boomed because of an asset price squeeze caused by excess demand. Encouragement of provision of financial services (which has a large EU workforce) and tax breaks for private equity capital have distorted our regional economies further. Inequality has massively increased beyond a socially acceptable level and the EU is one of the influences on this process. I would argue that in part it can be attributed to Mrs Thatcher's/John Major's Governments support for the development of a single European market. We are now seeing these distortions all over Europe with some rich areas getting richer and other poor areas getting poorer. There really isn't much wealth trickling
down to the likes of Greece etc and perhaps also Wakefield.
I certainly don't think inequality will fall under a Tory Government but I also don't think it
would fall whilst members of a single market.

Neville's Breakfast · Dec 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I have stayed in Bradford, Halifax, York, Sheffield, Huddersfield and Scarborough over the years and visited Leeds numerous times. I feel I have a reasonable understanding of the county based on experience within the cities/towns and when I consider my experiences there, compared to others, it's not overly positive. Sheffield is nice. I also liked Huddersfield. I found the people in these places warm and fun. In Leeds for example I found it different. Maybe I had a bad day in these places but my life it too short to have another go at trying to find the fun smiling people of Doncaster. I never struggle in say Manchester or Liverpool. Yorkshire I do. Maybe it's me? But I approach every place positively and 99% of the time have very positive experiences.

You may have a point about Doncaster :jester:

Neville's Breakfast · Dec 4, 2016

Baldseagull said:
Go to Wakefield, see the large number of men with thick necks. Perhaps it is the popularity of rugby league in those parts, but it is something I observed. I was responding to a comment about a night out in Wakefield, a night out in Wakefield means pubs. I was not at the opera.

I am sure you are right about the pubs in Wakefield. I doubt they are representative though of the majority of
ordinary families (voters). I think if you had a night out in my home town in Suffolk you might come to a similar conclusion as you have about Wakefield :wink:

and that definitely wouldn't be representative of the lovely place it is to live.

studio150 · Dec 4, 2016

GT49er said:
No, it's not even a possibility. What it is is one of the most inane babblings on Project Fear. No 'agreement' is necessary. Thousands of Brits (and other EU nationals) live and work in countries outside the EU, and thousands more citizens of countries outside the EU live and work in the EU. There are no bi-lateral or multi-national 'agreements' in place to let this happen. They are not needed. And people lived and worked in foreign countries long before the EU even existed (although obviously not too much - international travel wasn't so easy back then.
So please, all you frightened remainers, get this bit of Project Fear propaganda out of your heads. Repatriation of foreign nationals wont even be anywhere near the negotiating table. Won't be discussed. Won't be mooted. Won't happen. Get it?
You might want to argue about what does 'Brexit means Brexit' means - argue all day and al night if you want - but let's get this very clear. Brexit does not mean some sort of ethnic cleansing.

But so they stay as freedom of movement is retained, or do they stay under grandfather rights, or do they need to apply for and pay for a work visa, and if so how long is the work visa valid for.

Given that one of the longed for needs for leavers is controlled immigration then the issue of existing migrants is a valid one, and we still have no idea on what basis they will stay under. Clearly if a visa system is imposed for staying into the future, then some may be rejected.

Personally I would expect those here after a set date would have grandfather rights.

Danny-Boy · Dec 4, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
I'm not really sure why Wakefield voted Leave. There is an argument though that the increases in inequality in recent decades is a consequence of deliberate trickle down economics. The south east has boomed because of an asset price squeeze caused by excess demand. Encouragement of provision of financial services (which has a large EU workforce) and tax breaks for private equity capital have distorted our regional economies further. Inequality has massively increased beyond a socially acceptable level and the EU is one of the influences on this process. I would argue that in part it can be attributed to Mrs Thatcher's/John Major's Governments support for the development of a single European market. We are now seeing these distortions all over Europe with some rich areas getting richer and other poor areas getting poorer. There really isn't much wealth trickling
down to the likes of Greece etc and perhaps also Wakefield.
I certainly don't think inequality will fall under a Tory Government but I also don't think it
would fall whilst members of a single market.

Does that explain why Richmond Park decided to throw out a pro-Brexit MP though? By a staggering reversal of voting patterns. Having said that Richmond Park since its creation in 1997 was LD until 2010.

JC Footy Genius · Dec 4, 2016

Baldseagull said:
Go to Wakefield, see the large number of men with thick necks. Perhaps it is the popularity of rugby league in those parts, but it is something I observed. I was responding to a comment about a night out in Wakefield, a night out in Wakefield means pubs. I was not at the opera.

So when you said "The whole male population seemed to be built for door work" you weren't stereotyping then.

On your other point about Turkey's voting for Christmas (Poor/ JAM's voting for Brexit) I note since the Referendum, Cameron and Osborne ... the High Priests of Austerity have gone as has the target to run a surplus. Voting Remain = keeping them in place.

GoldWithFalmer · Dec 4, 2016

studio150 said:
But so they stay as freedom of movement is retained, or do they stay under grandfather rights, or do they need to apply for and pay for a work visa, and if so how long is the work visa valid for.

Given that one of the longed for needs for leavers is controlled immigration then the issue of existing migrants is a valid one, and we still have no idea on what basis they will stay under. Clearly if a visa system is imposed for staying into the future, then some may be rejected.

Personally I would expect those here after a set date would have grandfather rights.

A simple answer would be *my personal choice,that were you in the UK before or on the day of the referendum,you are permitted to stay,subject to normal controls and so forth.

Danny-Boy · Dec 4, 2016

Can someone tell me how we can close the borders to EU workers when they will have the right to transit the country to get into Ireland? Wil we run sealed trains from the Channel Tunnel to Holyhead?

It just seems another justification for ID cards in the longterm. Which was proposed by (New) Labour but voted down by Tories and LibDems. I bet UKIP backs that idea.

Mr Banana · Dec 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I like Sheffield and it has a lot going for it; it's reasonably culturally rich and the people are nice and fun from my experience. But Yorkshire has little else which I like and I find the people difficult.

Used to love visiting Sheff. Met some of my best pals there, most people had an amazing, pessimistic sense of humour, strong gig and art scene without the expense and, sometimes, the pretentiousness you get dahn sarf. Went back for the Rov game a couple of years back and loads of stuff had closed down and it seemed totally dead.

Danny-Boy · Dec 4, 2016

GT49er said:
Interesting. Perhaps the Treaty of Rome, per se, did not cede sufficient sovereignty to fall foul of the quoted laws? The trickle down effect since - Single European Act, Lisbon Treaty etc, - has further surrendered sovereignty. Maybe if the whole lot had been presented at the start (plus Shengen and the Euro - undoubtedly Heath would have signed up to the lot - he was desperate to be named European Man of the Year and to get presented with an ocean going racing yacht after all - then signing up would have contravened the various treason acts.
Whatever, I don't think it will cut much ice with today's judges in the supreme court; they are, after all, all part of the wealthy upper middle class Oxbridge elite that thinks sol lucet out of the EU's culus.

I think you're being unfair to Ted, he had fought in WW2 and was like most people sickened with the historic Franco-German power schism running through Western Europe which had in 70 years produced 3 conflicts since 1870. Also France and Italy both had very vigorous Communist movements in the 1950's, there would have been a big desire to build up a pan-Europe ideal to counter USSR power in the East.
Once the Commonwealth had started to fall apart and geographical factors began to sway Canada, Australia and NZ out of the family and South Africa was cast out, that only left GB the EFTA group, who were the also-runs in economical terms. Most of EFTA then joined the EEC/EU after we did.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 4, 2016

Soulman said:
I believe you set yourself up fairly well. I respond when I want not on your arrogant request. Have a lovely season of goodwill in the fatherland.

Herr Tubthumper said:
But you never respond do you? You never stand on your own two feet. This is the point. You just agree with your like-minded friends or vacuously paste stuff which you seemingly haven't fully read and certainly not fully understood. And when you are pressed for a response you always use the line above; in any walk of life if you repeatedly say "I'll reply when I want to" it means you're either slow-witted, don't have a response or both. I know this, everyone else knows this and most of all you know this.

So, who would have guessed that [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] would have used his "when I want" line and then disappeared when he had to stand on his own two feet eh? What a coward. And why I even bother with this muppet I'm not sure.

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