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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,085


GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,875
Gloucester
jakarta said:
And of course only the Brexit side did that... Anyone remember the immediate Financial Crash, Emergency Budget, Increased Taxes & Recession?
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peterward said:
Mark Carney? George Osborne? David Cameron? The German Foreign Minister?
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Hush! Peace has broken out. Please be magnanimous to those one or two who haven't grasped that yet! :thumbsup:


Although I must admit that the notion that those of us who voted leave were in some way lying about wanting to leave is a little perverse.
 




L

Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Green Cross Code Man said:
Churchill did NOT envisage us being part of the EU.
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You are RIGHT. The EU wasn't formed until over 40 years later. Churchill said that he hoped that people of every European country would one day be able to go anywhere in the continent and regard themselves as being at home, citizens of wherever they stood. As an Englishman I felt that that was becoming true.
 


H

Hampster Gull

New member
Dec 22, 2010
13,462
Lincoln Imp said:
Many people would find it easier to be sanguine about a Corbyn or Trump victory for the reason you mention - there would be a chance to change things in four or five years. It was nearly 70 years ago that Churchill outlined his European dream and for 40 years Britain and its people have been moving, in fits and starts and with many disappointments, red herrings and false turns, towards the situation he described. In 70 years almost every last one of us will be dead and that, I guess, is what puts 23 June in perspective. That result really was the thrill, or the setback, of a lifetime. Reactions are bound to be strong.
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Not quite sure why people want a love in on this now its over, having different opinions is what makes the world interesting. On Churchill, the European Union’s website lists him as one of 11 founding fathers of the organisation. In Strasbourg, the European parliament boasts a Winston Churchill Building in honour of his legacy for European cooperation.
 


JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
Churchill said many things relating to the future of Europe at different times in his career.

"Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition "with" but not "of"—we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire."

Personally it doesn't bother me one way or the other what he said over half a century ago as no one can truly know what he would make of today's much changed EU.
 


T

The Rivet

Well-known member
Aug 9, 2011
4,513
Lincoln Imp said:
Many people would find it easier to be sanguine about a Corbyn or Trump victory for the reason you mention - there would be a chance to change things in four or five years. It was nearly 70 years ago that Churchill outlined his European dream and for 40 years Britain and its people have been moving, in fits and starts and with many disappointments, red herrings and false turns, towards the situation he described. In 70 years almost every last one of us will be dead and that, I guess, is what puts 23 June in perspective. That result really was the thrill, or the setback, of a lifetime. Reactions are bound to be strong.
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Nope that is not true at all. He was advocating continental Europe (not us) be collective in agreement and politics to stop war.

We were coyly told that the little island of Ventotene off Naples was where, in 1941, a prisoner of Mussolini’s had written the visionary manifesto that looked forward to building, after the war, a “United States of Europe”. What somehow got omitted was that Altiero Spinelli was a Communist (the Today programme merely described him on air as a “Fascist prisoner”, although, lest this be misunderstood, that was edited out of their online report).

We were not told that Spinelli’s Ventotene Manifesto proposed that his future government of Europe should be quietly assembled by its supporters over many years; and that only when all its pieces were in place would those supporters summon a convention to draw up a “Constitution for Europe”, which would finally reveal to the European people just what they had been up to.

Got it now?
 




pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
Green Cross Code Man said:
Churchill did NOT envisage us being part of the EU.
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Indeed.
In fairness though in his great speech in Zurich(did he ever have a bad speech day?) in order to combat the Germanic peoples dragging us all in to another war,to combat the present threat that the atomic bomb may fall into the wrong Waring hands and to restore a Europe united in common inheritance of christian faith and christian ethics he did propose a United States Of Europe ("or whatever name or form it may take")

A Europe where the four freedoms laid out by Roosevelt (Freedom of speech, Freedom of worship, Freedom from want, Freedom from fear) are at the forefront with a willingness from all citizens everywhere that they must be united to die rather than submit to tyranny.

He proposed a new Europe where France and Germany must take the lead and where Britain, The Commonwealth, America and Russia must be friends and sponsors.

Nothing to disagree with there, a bold vision for a peaceful united and friendly Europe. Something we all hope continues.

Not really proposing a EU that we knew existed and voted on in 2016.
I suspect if he was around today (and just my opinion) and saw how the area had morphed into The EU with all its problems it would be met with a simple WTF.
 


GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,875
Gloucester
pastafarian said:
Indeed.
In fairness though in his great speech in Zurich(did he ever have a bad speech day?) in order to combat the Germanic peoples dragging us all in to another war,to combat the present threat that the atomic bomb may fall into the wrong Waring hands and to restore a Europe united in common inheritance of christian faith and christian ethics he did propose a United States Of Europe ("or whatever name or form it may take")

A Europe where the four freedoms laid out by Roosevelt (Freedom of speech, Freedom of worship, Freedom from want, Freedom from fear) are at the forefront with a willingness from all citizens everywhere that they must be united to die rather than submit to tyranny.

He proposed a new Europe where France and Germany must take the lead and where Britain, The Commonwealth, America and Russia must be friends and sponsors.

Nothing to disagree with there, a bold vision for a peaceful united and friendly Europe. Something we all hope continues.

Not really proposing a EU that we knew existed and voted on in 2016.
I suspect if he was around today (and just my opinion) and saw how the area had morphed into The EU with all its problems it would be met with a simple WTF.
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I rather like the image of the great man shrugging his churchillian shoulders whilst intoning in a most dignified fashion, 'WTF'............
 






Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
19,759
Eastbourne
5ways said:
I will declare my own peace in 2030 as part of the Glorious Re-entry :angel:
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Reentry to what? I would imagine that if by some fortune of chance, the EU still exists, it will be vastly different to what we see today. I would be surprised if the members were the same for instance.
 


L

Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
The Rivet said:
Nope that is not true at all. He was advocating continental Europe (not us) be collective in agreement and politics to stop war.

We were coyly told that the little island of Ventotene off Naples was where, in 1941, a prisoner of Mussolini’s had written the visionary manifesto that looked forward to building, after the war, a “United States of Europe”. What somehow got omitted was that Altiero Spinelli was a Communist (the Today programme merely described him on air as a “Fascist prisoner”, although, lest this be misunderstood, that was edited out of their online report).

We were not told that Spinelli’s Ventotene Manifesto proposed that his future government of Europe should be quietly assembled by its supporters over many years; and that only when all its pieces were in place would those supporters summon a convention to draw up a “Constitution for Europe”, which would finally reveal to the European people just what they had been up to.

Got it now?
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As I read it your claim is that the EU is turning itself into a United States of Europe as part of of an undercover plot drawn up by a communist prisoner on an Italian island 75 years ago. There's not much I can say about that so may on concentrate on Churchill?

He said, in 1948: "We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will be proud to say 'I am a European'... without losing any part of their love and loyalty to their birthplace. We hope that wherever they go in this wide domain, to which we set no limits on the European continent, they will truly feel 'Here I am at home. I am a citizen of this country too.'" This seemed pretty geographically inclusive to me.

As JCFG rightly pointed out, Churchill said many things about Europe and some of these were conflicting. Towards his later years, he seemed to be less enthusiastic than he was earlier. I mentioned his words simply in the context of pointing out that many of us, for a very long time, have looked forward to the hopes he expressed of a wider citizenship becoming reality. If you're going to quote anyone, then Churchill isn't a bad start.

I didn't say Churchill was right, or even that Remainers like me were right. I was simply putting forward one reason for people feeling so strongly. In the circumstances, your patronising "Got it now?" was disappointing if unexpected.
 








H

Hampster Gull

New member
Dec 22, 2010
13,462
Lincoln Imp said:
As I read it your claim is that the EU is turning itself into a United States of Europe as part of of an undercover plot drawn up by a communist prisoner on an Italian island 75 years ago. There's not much I can say about that so may on concentrate on Churchill?

He said, in 1948: "We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will be proud to say 'I am a European'... without losing any part of their love and loyalty to their birthplace. We hope that wherever they go in this wide domain, to which we set no limits on the European continent, they will truly feel 'Here I am at home. I am a citizen of this country too.'" This seemed pretty geographically inclusive to me.

As JCFG rightly pointed out, Churchill said many things about Europe and some of these were conflicting. Towards his later years, he seemed to be less enthusiastic than he was earlier. I mentioned his words simply in the context of pointing out that many of us, for a very long time, have looked forward to the hopes he expressed of a wider citizenship becoming reality. If you're going to quote anyone, then Churchill isn't a bad start.

I didn't say Churchill was right, or even that Remainers like me were right. I was simply putting forward one reason for people feeling so strongly. In the circumstances, your patronising "Got it now?" was disappointing if unexpected.
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Good post. If we are on semantics i would hope even a fool would know that the UK is part of Europe. That he was an early champion is neither here nor there now as you say, but he was a visionary
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,831
The Fatherland
Green Cross Code Man said:
Reentry to what? I would imagine that if by some fortune of chance, the EU still exists, it will be vastly different to what we see today. I would be surprised if the members were the same for instance.
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It's a long way of but I think Germany will have purchased England in 30 years time.

(Joke)
 














maltaseagull

maltaseagull

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2009
13,061
Zabbar- Malta
Jean-Claude Juncker said:
The European Union needs a military headquarters to work towards a common military force, the Commission president has told MEPs in Strasbourg.

Phew! Got out of that then.
 


Westdene Seagull

Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,106
The arse end of Hangleton
maltaseagull said:
Jean-Claude Juncker said:
The European Union needs a military headquarters to work towards a common military force, the Commission president has told MEPs in Strasbourg.

Phew! Got out of that then.
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Strange given so many remainers said that an EU army WASN'T on the cards or even being considered. *** Consider the cease fire broken ***

Next .... discussions on Turkey joining the EU ( apparently never going to happen ! ).
 


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