[Politics] Brexit

beorhthelm · May 3, 2016

5ways said:
I don't know where you got those figures from, but if you can look past your nose you might see that it is in our interest to have a democratic and prosperous European neighborhood.

how about you address the quesiton rather than try to insult? how is it in anyones interest that we pay up front to bring in new members? if they are not about to adjust to the required criteria on their own, why allow them to join? it worked out really well for Greece, bending over backward to fit them in when it wasnt really suitable for their economy. this demostrates that the motivation of EU is to grab more power, and in the case of expansion bring more and more cost on the few net contributors of which we are one.

JC Footy Genius · May 3, 2016

5ways said:
I don't know where you got those figures from, but if you can look past your nose you might see that it is in our interest to have a democratic and prosperous European neighborhood.

Very generous of you, we have no need of that money here obviously but that doesn't address the point .. why is the EU helping countries reach the required entry level for EU membership but not going to let them in?

The BBC fact checking service sorry it's not the FT.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36153200

JC Footy Genius · May 3, 2016

5ways said:
Pascal Lamy - former head of the WTO - explodes another Brexiter fantasy. They must be running low by now? I guess there is always the Albania model...

Pascal Lamy .. who served as the French member on the European Commission for 5 years .... the Remain side must be running low on impartial opinions ..who next Jacques Delors?

Bevendean Hillbilly · May 3, 2016

Obviously NSC is aware that Albanians are currently topping the tables for those illegally in the United Kingdom and that's whilst they have no entitlement to work or benefits. I can't see that trend slowing once they're ALLOWED to enter and work.

Additionally Turkish nationals are a very well represented minority among those legally here. I imagine they have plenty of family and friends waiting in Ankara for accession as well.

This is the ONLY issue in the EU debate and I think most people recognise that. The economic imperatives are incredibly important too. But consider this. Imagine another economic crisis on a par with the last one. There is a very real chance that this will happen, what then? We've got far fewer jobs in the economy, far more migrants from the former soviet bloc in the UK unwilling to go home because the economy there is always going to be worse there, far more competition for jobs in the service sector, far more friction in the most densely populated areas. All this talk about a harsher economic situation,if we leave, imagines some utopian future of continuous growth forever and ever amen.

Germany may have the clout to accommodate a limitless supply of migrants, God knows they reabsorbed the DDR with seemingly little consequence, perhaps the German economy will balloon upwards for the foreseeable future. The fact remains though that even they need a healthy global economy to sell things too or they're screwed too.

I've lived too long to believe that we can fail here. I remember harsh times in the Seventies and eighties, mass redundancies, boom and bust and the terrible conflicts within society then. Adding another 3 million souls to the mix would have resulted in civil war.

Two Professors · May 3, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
Oh well, never mind. I thought the founder of the Carphone Warehouse might have been supporting our membership of the EU because he thought membership of the EU might be worth supporting. And now? And now it's been explained to me that the only possible reasons for such an opinion are (a) he's a greedy sod with his snout in the trough and (b) he doesn't want to upset Samantha. Life's so disapponting.

I hate to see posters on here upset,so maybe you should research the 'Chipping Norton Set',perhaps I was telling porkies.Even if I wasn't,it is quite an interesting read about how our so-called betters behave.The fruit you were asking about is a hybrid-a bit of a lemon,but also a prize plum!

pastafarian · May 3, 2016

interesting to see Caroline Lucas in the commons right now trying to get a ten minute rule bill on EU reform, describing the EU as unaccountable and undemocratic yet we must stay IN and reform it from within……..most other ministers telling her you cant……the EU don’t do reform

Deleted member 22389 · May 3, 2016

pastafarian said:
interesting to see Caroline Lucas in the commons right now trying to get a ten minute rule bill on EU reform, describing the EU as unaccountable and undemocratic yet we must stay IN and reform it from within……..most other ministers telling her you cant……the EU don’t do reform

Lucas does my head in. She really is on another planet if she thinks the EU does reform.

5ways · May 3, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Very generous of you, we have no need of that money here obviously but that doesn't address the point .. why is the EU helping countries reach the required entry level for EU membership but not going to let them in?

The BBC fact checking service sorry it's not the FT.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36153200

Speaking of the FT they had a great editorial today if you've had a chance to catch it :wink:

Deleted member 22389 · May 3, 2016

You couldn't make it up. Now the EU will impose fines of 250,000 Euros for every rejected Refugee. You call this democracy?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refugee-quota/

beorhthelm · May 3, 2016

bashlsdir said:
You couldn't make it up. Now the EU will impose fines of 250,000 Euros for every rejected Refugee. You call this democracy?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refugee-quota/

i saw this story a couple of weeks ago, i thought it so outlandish dismissed it as conspiracy theory. the figure is stunning, even 1/100th would lead to excessive "fines" given the millions of refugees. however under what authority does Junker think this can be enforced. the current rules are that refugees are processed in the country they register and claim asylum, and there isnt any law to force distribution of refugees. so are we about to see how the EU will just make up law on the hoof to address a problem of their own making?

Soulman · May 3, 2016

Greenpeace Netherlands has released secret TTIP negotiation documents. We have done so to provide much needed transparency and trigger an informed debate on the treaty. This treaty is threatening to have far reaching implications for the environment and the lives of more than 800 million citizens in the EU and US.

Whether you care about environmental issues, animal welfare, labour rights or internet privacy, you should be concerned about what is in these leaked documents. They underline the strong objections civil society and millions of people around the world have voiced: TTIP is about a huge transfer of power from people to big business.
https://www.ttip-leaks.org/

After the leaks showing what it stands for, this could really be the end for TTIP
The documents show that US corporations will be granted unprecedented powers over any new public health or safety regulations to be introduced in future. If any European government does dare to bring in laws to raise social or environmental standards, TTIP will grant US investors the right to sue for loss of profits
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ttip-leaks-shocking-what-are-they-eu-us-deal-a7010121.html

heathgate · May 3, 2016

Soulman said:
Greenpeace Netherlands has released secret TTIP negotiation documents. We have done so to provide much needed transparency and trigger an informed debate on the treaty. This treaty is threatening to have far reaching implications for the environment and the lives of more than 800 million citizens in the EU and US.

Whether you care about environmental issues, animal welfare, labour rights or internet privacy, you should be concerned about what is in these leaked documents. They underline the strong objections civil society and millions of people around the world have voiced: TTIP is about a huge transfer of power from people to big business.
https://www.ttip-leaks.org/

After the leaks showing what it stands for, this could really be the end for TTIP
The documents show that US corporations will be granted unprecedented powers over any new public health or safety regulations to be introduced in future. If any European government does dare to bring in laws to raise social or environmental standards, TTIP will grant US investors the right to sue for loss of profits
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ttip-leaks-shocking-what-are-they-eu-us-deal-a7010121.html

Wait for it HT or DIP will now tell us this is just Brexiteers scaremongering. ....

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Steve in Japan · May 3, 2016

And in today's news Messrs Blair and Clinton will be saddling up together to explain why Bremain is the way forward (so it says in the Times). Couldn't make it up.

I also read the TTIP EU/US trade deal is floundering.

Plenty of time for more shenanigans before polling day.

cunning fergus · May 3, 2016

heathgate said:
Wait for it HT or DIP will now tell us this is just Brexiteers scaremongering. ....

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Some delicious stuff here to pick over with the in-crowd.

Hollande is apparently putting his foot down with the US just as France is descending into vigorous protests about the TTIP deal and his ratings are on the floor.

http://www.politico.eu/article/francois-hollande-no-to-ttip-at-this-stage-matthias-fekl/

A mere matter of weeks ago he was hoping to get in resolved quickly.

http://www.euractiv.com/section/trade-society/news/hollande-to-obama-let-s-agree-ttip-fast/

One quote from Hollande I read earlier concerned his resistance to uncontrolled free market capitalism courtesy of TTIP..........I wonder how that position sits with Obama's bestie Cameron and his band of Tory wannabes all lining up to gag themselves stupid on Uncle Sam's big swinging monetarist dick.

Not Tories they say.............haha..........priceless.

cunning fergus · May 4, 2016

5ways said:
It's a price having to be paid because of the refugee crisis. Visa free travel is massively different to full membership. Unfortunately this is realpolitik, they deal with refugees we pay them off. This is how actual politics works, Brexiter fantasy politics (sorry) is where your position is the only correct one and the laws of politics, and perhaps gravity, have to bend around it. For example "we can leave the EU but retain full access to the single market but we DON'T have to have free movement" because "they need us as much as we need them and we are equal partners".

That's not how it works. Turkey has some political capital and is using it.

You were the one saying earlier that Turkey joining the EU was a scare story, now you are saying the EU has to bend to Turkey's will because of realpolitik. If you are allowed to stay up you may have at he'd Newsnight which had Turkey's senior advisor at the EU conference.......free movement for Turks is coming and no one in the EU voted for it. That is a disgrace.

That's the problem with you inners, you lack political backbone because your ideological motives revolve endlessly around mercantilism. If you had any political minerals you would know how to deal with events differently.

It's not your fault, you are are product of our current and recent political class, if they hadn't sold out this country (and others) to global capitalism voters wouldn't be running off to the margins to the likes of 5 star, or Polomos, or Marianne LePen, or the AfD or UKIP or Trump for that matter.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Lincoln Imp · May 4, 2016

heathgate said:
Wait for it HT or DIP will now tell us this is just Brexiteers scaremongering. ....

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I've no idea what HT or DIP will say but it is fair to point out that one of these articles was written by a polemicist called John Hilary. He is an unswerving loather of international trade who has very set opinions on ambitious global trade deals - the very thing Brexiters want to see more of. I would not expect him to say anything else. (It's worth mentioning that his sentence finishing "...TTIP will grant investors the right to sue for loss of profits" means very little. I have the right to sue Soulman for calling me a lemon but it doesn't mean I'd win.)

The other piece came from Greenpeace. Some people just love that hugely rich and successful lobbying organisation but I've always always had a niggling doubt about the effects of its pressure on
the developing world. It just seems a bit Islington-superior somehow.

Still, its comments support a particular aspect of the Leave campaign so well done for digging them out.

Lincoln Imp · May 4, 2016

cunning fergus said:
You were the one saying earlier that Turkey joining the EU was a scare story, now you are saying the EU has to bend to Turkey's will because of realpolitik. If you are allowed to stay up you may have at he'd Newsnight which had Turkey's senior advisor at the EU conference.......free movement for Turks is coming and no one in the EU voted for it. That is a disgrace.

That's the problem with you inners, you lack political backbone because your ideological motives revolve endlessly around mercantilism. If you had any political minerals you would know how to deal with events differently.

It's not your fault, you are are product of our current and recent political class, if they hadn't sold out this country (and others) to global capitalism voters wouldn't be running off to the margins to the likes of 5 star, or Polomos, or Marianne LePen, or the AfD or UKIP or Trump for that matter.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

That really is wincingly patronising. I can't believe it does your case any favours.

heathgate · May 4, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I've no idea what HT or DIP will say but it is fair to point out that one of these articles was written by a polemicist called John Hilary. He is an unswerving loather of international trade who has very set opinions on ambitious global trade deals - the very thing Brexiters want to see more of. I would not expect him to say anything else. (It's worth mentioning that his sentence finishing "...TTIP will grant investors the right to sue for loss of profits" means very little. I have the right to sue Soulman for calling me a lemon but it doesn't mean I'd win.)

The other piece came from Greenpeace. Some people just love that hugely rich and successful lobbying organisation but I've always always had a niggling doubt about the effects of its pressure on
the developing world. It just seems a bit Islington-superior somehow.

Still, its comments support a particular aspect of the Leave campaign so well done for digging them out.

TTIP is a US carve up... designed simply you grant US corporations express queue status for access to EU markets... it will leave room for legal redress if the EU subsequently introduces legislation that would reduce profits to said US companies..... this is what the commission is planning to sign up to..... #VoteLeave

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LlcoolJ · May 4, 2016

heathgate said:
TTIP is a US carve up... designed simply you grant US corporations express queue status for access to EU markets... it will leave room for legal redress if the EU subsequently introduces legislation that would reduce profits to said US companies..... this is what the commission is planning to sign up to..... #VoteLeave

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You seriously think that Boris and his brexit chums wouldn't jump at the chance to sign the UK up to such a deal? I don't understand how people can spin policies that our government supports into an anti EU story. It makes zero sense.

Lincoln Imp · May 4, 2016

heathgate said:
TTIP is a US carve up... designed simply you grant US corporations express queue status for access to EU markets... it will leave room for legal redress if the EU subsequently introduces legislation that would reduce profits to said US companies..... this is what the commission is planning to sign up to..... #VoteLeave

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Perhaps you should advise the European Commission of its mistake in this area.

Meanwhile, though, when asked why TTIP will allow big business to sue the EU over new legislation, the commission replies as follows:

They won't. This is a myth.

Under the Lisbon Treaty, the European Commission negotiates investment agreements on behalf of the EU. When instructing the Commission to enter into talks with the US on TTIP, the governments of the EU's countries told it to negotiate Investor to State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) as part of the deal.

The EU wants TTIP to offer protection for EU firms when they invest abroad. ISDS is a way to do this. ISDS has existed for decades and EU countries already have some 1,400 ISDS agreements in place, including as part of their investment treaties with countries outside the EU.

ISDS makes it possible for a foreign firm to apply for compensation if a government seizes its assets or passes a law which only applies to foreign firms and makes their investment worthless. For example, a law banning a product made in a foreign-owned factory whilst not banning products made by domestic companies.

ISDS does not stop governments passing laws, but where new laws discriminate against foreign firms it allows them to bring a claim for compensation.

The European Commission believes the existing ISDS system needs to be improved. That is why it has been very active in developing new United Nations' rules for ISDS to make ISDS more transparent. The European Commission wants ISDS provisions in EU trade agreements to be the best possible, including with a code of conduct for, and government control of, arbitrators.

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[Politics] Brexit

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