Europe: In or Out

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
You're obviously reading some text that is invisible on my screen then. You clearly trust Cameron to not use spin and smoke & mirrors when he presents the deal .... just like when he didn't use these tools when telling us we wouldn't be paying that sudden very large bill ..... but of course we did pay it. I couldn't care less what Cameron gets as a deal, it won't make a blind bit of difference in the long run, so it has to be OUT regardless.

The deal will be a matter of record,... do you think that one man can hide parts of the deal away from the public and press?.... please get into the real world.... you need stop quoting from Jez Corbyn's book of 1970's left wing rhetoric.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

bashlsdir said:
Pathetic from Cameron, but did we expect anything different.

.... and what is this 'WE' business,... have you never looked at any of the polls on this site,... in most polls the eyes to the right have it. ( or at least centre-right)

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

Will you really?

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

Regardless of any deal Cameron ( or anyone else ) comes up with it will not change the fact that the EU is an enormously corrupt organisation intent on full political and fiscal union. I don't need to know the deal to hold the view that we shouldn't belong to such an organisation.

RyFish · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
Regardless of any deal Cameron ( or anyone else ) comes up with it will not change the fact that the EU is an enormously corrupt organisation intent on full political and fiscal union. I don't need to know the deal to hold the view that we shouldn't belong to such an organisation.

Is the EU itself corrupt (evidence?) or is it the countries within the EU that are corrupt and still would be even if not part of the EU? Not saying it's not, but I have yet to see actual proof.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
The deal will be a matter of record,... do you think that one man can hide parts of the deal away from the public and press?.... please get into the real world.... you need stop quoting from Jez Corbyn's book of 1970's left wing rhetoric.

So now I'm left wing ? Wow - you haven't read many of my previous political posts have you ? But there in lies the problem too many people ( which would appear to include you now ) try and pigeon hole people into left wing or right wing. You don't think any deal will be coated with sugar for UK voters ? Really ? I refer you to Ted Heath's admission after the 1975 referendum that the IN camp purposely didn't raise the aim of full political union because 'British voters wouldn't have voted for that'. Politicians of all colours hide and spin stuff - Cameron is no different.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

RyFish said:
Is the EU itself corrupt (evidence?) or is it the countries within the EU that are corrupt and still would be even if not part of the EU? Not saying it's not, but I have yet to see actual proof.

They haven't managed to find an auditor to sign off their accounts for approaching 20 years .... I wonder why not ?

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

Oh come on HT, you know - we know - Cameron knows - even Merkel knows that you are voting IN.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
So now I'm left wing ? Wow - you haven't read many of my previous political posts have you ? But there in lies the problem too many people ( which would appear to include you now ) try and pigeon hole people into left wing or right wing. You don't think any deal will be coated with sugar for UK voters ? Really ? I refer you to Ted Heath's admission after the 1975 referendum that the IN camp purposely didn't raise the aim of full political union because 'British voters wouldn't have voted for that'. Politicians of all colours hide and spin stuff - Cameron is no different.

Left or right who knows,.... but dont you think that we are in an era where making things up will just not work anymore,... the information access, the retrospective accountability even through the courts, not forgetting an unrelenting media make 'spinning' a thing of the past, best left to Blair and his historic shenanigans eh?

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
They haven't managed to find an auditor to sign off their accounts for approaching 20 years .... I wonder why not ?

Ah this old chestnut. I'm of the opinion they're public and transparent and anyone can scrutinise them so what's the need for a signature? It'd be more ceremony than meaning. After all, who on earth could sign off the accounts for an entire continent? It's nonsense.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Ah this old chestnut. I'm of the opinion they're public and transparent and anyone can scrutinise them so what's the need for a signature? It'd be more ceremony than meaning. After all, who on earth could sign off the accounts for an entire continent? It's nonsense.

Using that argument we might as well do away with the National Audit Office - let's not worry that over the years they have found numerous bad spending by governments and have held politicians to account. Auditors provide the check and balances that public servants are making sensible spending decisions. I wonder what auditors would make of the immoral costs of the gravy train moving between Strasbourg and Brussels ? The millions of wasted public / taxpayers money ? The EU might as well just build a bonfire and put those Euros on it because that's effectively what they are doing with the constant moves.

RyFish · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
They haven't managed to find an auditor to sign off their accounts for approaching 20 years .... I wonder why not ?

So... any proof of corruption? If it is "enormously corrupt" actual evidence shouldn't be that hard to track down.

Bevendean Hillbilly · Feb 2, 2016

I'm persuaded by the idea of "**** it. Let's see what happens if we leave"

I say this because absolutely NO ONE knows what will happen if we leave. The U.K. Has a massive economy, only Germany has a more dynamic one, London alone has a bigger population than 13 of the member countries entire populations. We import more German cars than 15 of the 28 members PUT TOGETHER and the U.K. military capability is second only to France and is considered the best in the world man for man.

We could and should demand better terms than piddling Norway and Switzerland have because we are massively more important as a nation and co-belligerent. We have NOTHING to fear in leaving.

That said. I am more inclined just at the moment to press pause on this. There is no reason why the UK can't say..ok, we'll see how you play with us for the next four years. If you try and jack us we will have another referendum.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Whatever way you dress this up (and claiming your opinions as fact and dismissing everything else seems to be your modus operandi) the Greeks without doubt had got themselves into a very very difficult situation; I don't disagree with this. But, their long road to recovery had three paths all of which were explored: one their own, with another partner or with the EU. Each path was rocky but then it would be given their predicament; there wasn't going to be a fairy waving her wand over this situation. Also they clearly couldn't carry on the way they had been and some tough home choices had to be made irrespective of the path they chose. They voted on who they thought domestically could resolve this situation and then again on what they thought was the best way ahead. This is democracy.....something the Greeks know a think or two about. No fairy with a wand but there was a friendly neighbourly hand.

Greek governments do as you say bare much responsibility for years of economic mismanagement, corruption and inefficiencies. But and it is a mighty big but (coloured blue with yellow stars glistening on the shiny rump) this was the case when they were one of the founding signatories of the Eurozone project. The fact Greece were allowed to ignore fiscal rules year after year enabling them to continue with little reform or true oversight shows the EU also bares some measure of blame. It could also be argued the original construct of the Eurozone was flawed trying to meld numerous differing economies with countries having very different attitudes to adhering to regulatory structures was always going to end in tears. Greece was not the only offender.

For the umpteenth time It is a fact that the Greek people voted in a far left anti Austerity government and the only time the Greek people had a direct democratic say on the specific issue of accepting any EU bailout package they voted no (61%).

Yes the anti austerity Greek government were bullied into caving in which left the people with an unenviable choice of signing up to ongoing austerity or face catastrophic economic consequences. I will agree with you that one valuable lesson can be learn't from this situation and that is the public should not be deceived by siren voices on the left claiming there is a fairyland solution of avoiding facing up to debt problems.

For EU 'neighbourliness' see defending the Eurozone and fear of contagion /collapse of the Euro / fatal undermining of the ever closer union project.

Note: the above is my 'opinion'

Titanic · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
.... and what is this 'WE' business,... have you never looked at any of the polls on this site,... in most polls the eyes to the right have it. ( or at least centre-right)

The 'AYES' are always to the right, and the 'NOES' to the left :thumbsup:

Lincoln Imp · Feb 2, 2016

T

Westdene Seagull said:
Using that argument we might as well do away with the National Audit Office - let's not worry that over the years they have found numerous bad spending by governments and have held politicians to account. Auditors provide the check and balances that public servants are making sensible spending decisions. I wonder what auditors would make of the immoral costs of the gravy train moving between Strasbourg and Brussels ? The millions of wasted public / taxpayers money ? The EU might as well just build a bonfire and put those Euros on it because that's effectively what they are doing with the constant moves.

Is it an auditor's job to make anything of the policy to meet in both Strasbourg and Brussels?

For what it's worth I seriously dislike the self-regarding and wasteful habits of public bureaucracies, but that doesn't mean I want to turn my back on them, whether they happen to be the British Army, the NHS, the Police or the European Union. There is a danger of mixing our messages - just because an organisation is efficiently run doesn't mean it is fundamentally worthwhile and, of course, the reverse is true.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Yes the anti austerity Greek government were bullied into caving in which left the people with an unenviable choice of signing up to ongoing austerity or face catastrophic economic consequences. I will agree with you that one valuable lesson can be learn't from this situation and that is the public should not be deceived by siren voices on the left claiming there is a fairyland solution of avoiding facing up to debt problems.
Note: the above is my 'opinion'

This is the crux of all economic crisis since 2008,.... the good times of spend spend spend reached a final and crashing slump for all concerned. 1997-2010 economics may have been exciting for those at the top, for those shareholders, for the mortgage lenders, even for us borrowers, easy money wherever you look. Sadly, like Greece, there was no plan for when the belt needed to be tightened,..... chickens came home to roost, bills needed paying, accounts needed balancing..... and so here we are..... paying the piper.

Guinness Boy · Feb 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Greek governments do as you say bare much responsibility for years of economic mismanagement, corruption and inefficiencies. But and it is a mighty big but (coloured blue with yellow stars glistening on the shiny rump) this was the case when they were one of the founding signatories of the Eurozone project. The fact Greece were allowed to ignore fiscal rules year after year enabling them to continue with little reform or true oversight shows the EU also bares some measure of blame. It could also be argued the original construct of the Eurozone was flawed trying to meld numerous differing economies with countries having very different attitudes to adhering to regulatory structures was always going to end in tears. Greece was not the only offender.

For the umpteenth time It is a fact that the Greek people voted in a far left anti Austerity government and the only time the Greek people had a direct democratic say on the specific issue of accepting any EU bailout package they voted no (61%).

Yes the anti austerity Greek government were bullied into caving in which left the people with an unenviable choice of signing up to ongoing austerity or face catastrophic economic consequences. I will agree with you that one valuable lesson can be learn't from this situation and that is the public should not be deceived by siren voices on the left claiming there is a fairyland solution of avoiding facing up to debt problems.

For EU 'neighbourliness' see defending the Eurozone and fear of contagion /collapse of the Euro / fatal undermining of the ever closer union project.

Note: the above is my 'opinion'

So when a government makes its own decisions it's the EU's fault for not interfering but when we want to make our own decisions we can't because the EU exerts too much control? Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Greek governments do as you say bare much responsibility for years of economic mismanagement, corruption and inefficiencies. But and it is a mighty big but (coloured blue with yellow stars glistening on the shiny rump) this was the case when they were one of the founding signatories of the Eurozone project. The fact Greece were allowed to ignore fiscal rules year after year enabling them to continue with little reform or true oversight shows the EU also bares some measure of blame. It could also be argued the original construct of the Eurozone was flawed trying to meld numerous differing economies with countries having very different attitudes to adhering to regulatory structures was always going to end in tears. Greece was not the only offender.

For the umpteenth time It is a fact that the Greek people voted in a far left anti Austerity government and the only time the Greek people had a direct democratic say on the specific issue of accepting any EU bailout package they voted no (61%).

Yes the anti austerity Greek government were bullied into caving in which left the people with an unenviable choice of signing up to ongoing austerity or face catastrophic economic consequences. I will agree with you that one valuable lesson can be learn't from this situation and that is the public should not be deceived by siren voices on the left claiming there is a fairyland solution of avoiding facing up to debt problems.

For EU 'neighbourliness' see defending the Eurozone and fear of contagion /collapse of the Euro / fatal undermining of the ever closer union project.

Note: the above is my 'opinion'

You missed off that Germany, and to a lesser extent France, continued to lend money to Greece even after their economy was exposed as a basket case in return for sweetheart deals around infrastructure projects ( Germany ) and weapons ( France ). Irresponsible lending on a huge scale.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

Titanic said:
The 'AYES' are always to the right, and the 'NOES' to the left

Aye

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